Ornamentation: Brother Steve vs Grey Larsen

[Guidus]

Hello there. I'm kind of in trouble and I need some advice.

When I started learning the whistle, I followed the excellent directions by Brother Steve, http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/. In his view, cuts are done using the G finger on D,E,F, and G, while the B finger should be used for cuts on A and B. It seems that most players employ this pattern.

Enter Grey Larsen and his "The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle", which I recently bought. Shock horror - a completely different approach: cuts should be done on the note above, i.e. the E finger on D, the F finger on E, the G finger on F, and so on. The rationale is that these cuts sound more crisp.

I tried Grey's recommentations and yes, these cuts do sound better. (If I could do them quickly enough all the time, that is.) But adopting his method would require a total rewrite of my playing habits, and re-learning the few dozens of tunes I painstakingly learnt "the wrong way".

I tend to follow the masters' directions, but this time I really don't fell like going back to square one. Has anyone had this experience? Suggestions?

[FJohnSharp]

I learned it nearer to Steve's method (I lift the A finger to cut A) from a wonderful whistle player near me and IMO, stick with your way. Lots of fine players play that way. The thing I think people would tell you is there is not one ONE RIGHT WAY.

[peeplj]

What FJohnSharp said.

It doesn't matter as long as you find a way that works.

It's the sound that counts, not which finger lifts.

--James

[crookedtune]

I'm going through a similar issue playing C natural on flute. On my whistles, 0XX 0XX worked just fine. But on my flute, I get a much clearer and more accurate one with 0X0 XXX. So I'm debating whether to try to convert over completely, or maybe just introduce the better one in where it's convenient. Probably I'll do the latter.

[Screeeech!!!]

For me...

xoo ooo cut with ooo ooo
xxo ooo cut with xoo ooo
xxx ooo cut with xxo ooo
xxx xoo cut with xxo xoo
xxx xxo cut with xxx oxo
xxx xxx cut with xxx oxx or xxx xox

Unless i'm cutting down onto a note then it all depends on what i'm cutting down from and to.

I think the main thing is to find something that works for you and you're happy with the sound of.

[Wanderer]

Hello there. I'm kind of in trouble and I need some advice.

When I started learning the whistle, I followed the excellent directions by Brother Steve, http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/. In his view, cuts are done using the G finger on D,E,F, and G, while the B finger should be used for cuts on A and B. It seems that most players employ this pattern.

Enter Grey Larsen and his "The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle", which I recently bought. Shock horror - a completely different approach: cuts should be done on the note above, i.e. the E finger on D, the F finger on E, the G finger on F, and so on. The rationale is that these cuts sound more crisp.

I tried Grey's recommentations and yes, these cuts do sound better. (If I could do them quickly enough all the time, that is.) But adopting his method would require a total rewrite of my playing habits, and re-learning the few dozens of tunes I painstakingly learnt "the wrong way".

I tend to follow the masters' directions, but this time I really don't fell like going back to square one. Has anyone had this experience? Suggestions?

I use essentially the same method on Bro. Steve's website, which is the same method suggested by Bill Ochs in his tutor.
I sometimes cut the G note with the B finger though, which I really should break myself of. On about 2/3 of the whistles I've played, cutting 2nd octave G with the b finger is really nasty and choppy sounding.

The grace note in a cut is a musical blip, and while it has a pitch value, it's more of a rhythmic ornament...the pitch is less important than the timing. While cutting with different fingers will give that little blip a slightly different sound, I think it's more important to use what works best for you. If that means switching over to the Grey Larsen way because it works better for you, then go for it.....otherwise, I'd stick with what you know.

I've gone through a couple of "total rewrites" of learning tunes when I was newer at the whistle. It's not as daunting as it first appears.

[phoebe]

I'm kind of relieved to see this thread. I started cuts using something more like Brother Steve's method and then tried to change to Grey Larsen's because many of the cuts just sounded better to me. So now I have a somewhat mixed method that works and allows me to do cuts without actually thinking about it. It's nice to know that there's no law about performing cuts properly.

[straycat82]

I wouldn't go changing your playing style because Larson says so. Larson's method may be the best for Larson while bro Steves method works best for bro Steve. You do what works for you and produces the sound you're aspiring towards. There are many here who would sing Grey's praises and there are also many who would probably throw his book out the window.
I myself happen to do a mixture of both cutting methods depending on what sounds best and sometimes what is easier to play for each individual tune. I have Grey's book and I have been over brother Steve's site many a time over the years. If you think that Larson's method of cutting sounds better to you then slightly re-working your playing is well worth the effort.

Good luck!

[doogieman]

I find that I use different cuts for the same notes in different situations. It's good to know all the options and then as you learn new tunes experiement with working in a new cut here and there.
After a while you'll discover the "right" way.

[Jennie]

I'm one of those who spent months retraining my fingers, losing all ability to play fluidly because my brain-to-hand connection was working so hard. I used Grey's recommendations.

That said, I was coming from a place in my playing where my ornaments were more fluttery, grace-note and trill type left over from classical training. I was just finding out what a cut was, and decided I might as well just go for it.

I'm currently in a similar process, on flute, of relearning the d fingering with my top hole vented. Slows me way down, but it'll be worth it because it sounds a lot better.

So decide which sound you like, think about whether you'll ever be playing a more finicky instrument, and take the time to get it "right" for you. Have fun, and be patient with yourself!

Jennie

[Henke]

This seems like a very small problem indeed. A cut is a cut no matter how you cut it!
Do it whatever way seems best to you. There is no rule.

[Bretton]

If my memory is working, I think Grey also mentions that this is more important on a flute than on a whistle. And suggests that you may want to adapt to his style if you think you'll go on to play flute some day.

You might also post over on the flute board and see what the majority of flute players do.

-Brett

[bradhurley]

You might also post over on the flute board and see what the majority of flute players do.

-Brett

Cuts on flutes vary just as much as cuts on whistle. I personally cut almost every note with A or B, in both octaves, on the flute. (I cut A and B with C#.) I know people who cut with the note just above, as Grey recommends, and people who cut with two or three notes above, or who always cut with the left hand and tap with the right, etc. It all works.

A friend of mine who took whistle lessons from Mary Bergin for three or four years when he lived in Galway told me that Mary cut everything with B or C#.

It really boils down to personal preference, habit, and ease of use; the actual note you use doesn't matter. If it sounds like a cut, it's a cut. If you like the sound of a cut better when you try a different way, use it.

[StevieJ]

This is really not something to worry about IMO. As with everything in this music, if you can get the sound you want, or you like the sound you get, who cares how you get it?

Brad, just for the record, in her 2001 class at E Durham Mary Bergin also recommended using the G finger and the B finger for cuts and she certainly did use the G finger herself.

Also for the record, here is what Brother Steve actually says about the subject:

...here's my basic rule of thumb for playing cuts. In both octaves of the whistle's range:

• Use the G finger (3rd finger of your top, normally left, hand) to cut the notes D, E, F# and G.
• Use the B finger (1st finger of your top, normally left, hand) to cut the notes A and B.

You can use other fingers to cut various notes, and there's nothing to stop you from trying other options, and sticking to what sounds best for you. There's a section on this later in the page. I recommend these two mainly for simplicity and because they will work in pretty much every situation and on every whistle.

....

Alternative fingerings

As I mentioned above, you don't have to stick to the fingerings I have shown you. The advantage of using the G and B fingers is that you can practise using two fingers only, and they will work in just about every situation and on every whistle.

Some fine teachers recommend using the finger immediately above the last - e.g., use the your 5th finger ("E finger") to cut D, your 4th of "F#" finger to cut E, and so on. I don't generally do this, but very often I use the B finger to cut all the notes in the first octave. Try cutting a G in the first octave, using the G finger, and then using the B finger. You'll probably find that the B finger gives you a much crisper sound, which I like. However, this won't work so well in the second octave. Trying to cut the high D with the B finger will not work - you'll get another high D. And cutting the high E with the B finger will produce similar results, or a slight variation in pitch, not a nice crisp cut.

On louder whistles, including many "high-end" makers' whistles, using the B finger to cut the higher notes such as high G and A may cause the whistle to squawk. I suggest you master using the G finger in both octaves for everything up to and including G, and the B finger for A and B. Then experiment with your own whistle(s) and see what suits you.

Cheers,
Steve

[Azalin]

I think Steve uses "lazy" techniques which are easier to learn, IMO, than the "optimal" way in which you could play an ornament or note. It's the same with the C natural. In theory, half-holing the B to produce a C would be optimal, you get more control and can actually make the C natural more in tune. But IMO it's not worth the extra effort, not on a whistle.

So from my point of view I think Steve has the right approach and I never regretted learning from him

There's one thing I'm less lazy than Steve with, it's about the venting of the B hole for a high D note. I always leave the B uncovered for a high D, and Steve doesnt. I think your whistle might squeak a little more if you leave your finger on the B hole