High D technical info

BrianB · Post by **BrianB** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 10:51 am

I'm interested in making a High D whistle similar to a Walton's Irish or mellow D but an octave higher. (Please don't ask why, can many whistle endeavors really withstand that scrutiny?) I have access to various sized thin-wall brass tubing and a lathe. I need some formulas to help choose tubing diameter, length and hole spacing.

TIA

brownja · Post by **brownja** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 10:58 am

A really high D would most likely be unplayable. A high G is difficult for most adults to play because it's so small. Go 4 notes higher and even small children would have a hard time fitting their fingers on it.
Sorry to rain on your parade.
jb

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:00 am

I really don't think that even a child could play a whistle that would be as small as the one you're talking about making would be.
Even a high G is too small for most people, and the beast you're talking about making would be considerably smaller than that.
I wouldn't want to be a dog in your neighborhood if you succeed at making such an ultra-high whistle!

DrRichard · Post by **DrRichard** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:19 am

Welllllll, not necessarily. Whistles play on "real" note and its first overtone _mostly_. It should be possible to create a Soprano D-sized D which played on the higher overtones. No idea how you would go about it, but it _should_ be at least theoretically possible.

That said, just making a super-high D by shortening the tube would probably not work, no, unless you had tiny hands.

Richard

brownja · Post by **brownja** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:41 am

On 2002-03-05 12:19, DrRichard wrote:
Welllllll, not necessarily. Whistles play on "real" note and its first overtone _mostly_. It should be possible to create a Soprano D-sized D which played on the higher overtones. No idea how you would go about it, but it _should_ be at least theoretically possible.

Hadn't thought of that. A normal whistle is optimized for first and second octave. I suppose you could optimize it for second and third instead.
jb

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 1:28 pm

Whistles like this have been made for professional musicians in the 19th and 20th centuries. In most cases they were made from a thick bore material to allow the toneholes to be drilled at an angle.

The Bassoon uses this technique to bring the wide frequency spacing of its toneholes together so a simple reversal on a whistle's tonehole spacing is needed for a d'''(d-6)key whistle. Modern Recorders use a thicker segment(deeper tonehole) for the lowest note to bring the tonehole within a comfortable reach.

High pitched whistles were used to train cage birds to mimic popular music in the Victorian era. These had thick bores with deep diagonal toneholes to spred the finger positions out and small voicing windows to reduce piercing loudness and/or shrillness.

Use Pete Kosel's "Flutomat" and change the "thickness" parameter and reduce the bore diameter for a narrow inside bore.

<a href="http://www.cwo.com/~ph_kosel/flutomat.html">Pete Kosel's Flutomat Calculator</a>

I hope this has helped
Thomas Hastay.

[ This Message was edited by: Thomas-Hastay on 2002-03-05 14:36 ]

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 2:17 pm

Greg played one of the free ones that Thom was giving out. He did pretty well, I thought

It inspired me to begin this:

.

It's been sitting around for a while, so it might just remain a tube, but someday I'll put it together.

I know that it doesn't have anything to do with your question, but I thought I'd share to help in the inspiration side of things. (The ID is about 6.5 mm, the OD is about 8.)

So don't give up...
Erik

[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2002-03-05 15:18 ]

mark02 · Post by **mark02** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 2:18 pm

There is an instrument that is quite similar to what you are describing. It is in the (brace yourselves) recorder family, and is called a "Garklein", I believe.
Lark in the Morning carries them; in their catalogue it is described as similar to a soprano recorder, but one octave higher.

If nothing else, you could possibly get some measurements, hear what you describe, and annoy most animals in your neighborhood.

All the best,
Mark Sackett

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 6:27 am

I have a garklein ( plastic, made by Aulos). I have fairly small hands, and it is a b*tch to finger! The higher register is ear splitting too. It is definitely possible to make such a high whistle, but I wouldn't really want to bother

ScottStewart · Post by **ScottStewart** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 7:30 am

I seem to remember a couple years back there was a young fellow on the west coast (US) making and selling copper and aluminum whistles of all sizes. He made low D's for about $50. He also made a whistle about the size of a ballpoint pen. He said it was playable, but I think the highest playable key would be an A. I have a Generation high G, and with my small to medium hands all my fingers are touching each other playing it.

BrianB · Post by **BrianB** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:58 am

Thanks for all the input and opinions. A sincere thanks to Thomas Hastay - Pete's Flutomat looks like just what I need.

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:06 am

I'm flattered you remembered!

On that ultra-ultra high C, I was actually playing 2 tone holes per finger, and it took me about 4 hours to learn to play "Down by the Sally Gardens" under that configuratioin, but by golly, I'm stubborn when I decide I want to learn something.

If you ever finish your mini tullberg, I'll be happy to try to play something on it.

Greg

On 2002-03-05 15:17, ErikT wrote:
Greg played one of the free ones that Thom was giving out. He did pretty well, I thought

ysgwd · Post by **ysgwd** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:26 am

Pretend I'm a little kid asking this question, but if the bore were narrow enough, wouldn't the tone holes still be far enough apart to be playable? Maybe it would be too quiet and clog too easily, but.....
Lisa

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Wed Mar 06, 2002 1:21 pm

First: You are very welcome Brian.tip; making a wooden bore in 2 halves using a router to cut the inner bore and "round up" the outer face, is much easier than drilling long bores with a wandering drill bit. This allows the option of more control when drilling the diagonal toneholes BEFORE you glue the halves together.

Lisa: To answer your question; Yes,making an inner bore diameter narrow does spred out the finger positions of the toneholes but when it begins to reach a bore/length ratio of 1/40,the fundamental or lowest range begins to "drop out".

By making the toneholes deeper as well,a designer can spred the positions even further apart for the comfort of the player.

Paul: Can you tell us if the voicing window on your "ear-splitting" Garklien exceeds 1/2 the inner bore diameter? If it were closer to 1/4 the inner bore diameter it would play much more quiet,yet retain its clear tone.

Many "Mass produced" instruments are made very loud to compete against modern band instruments,but a wonderful new trend of the quiet quintet/septet etc. is growing in popularity. I hope more soft sounding instruments will make it to the market. I challenge all whistlesmiths to produce quiet headjoints as an "option" to their standards!

Thomas Hastay.

[ This Message was edited by: Thomas-Hastay on 2002-03-06 14:32 ]