Popularising other cultures music

[DaveAuty]

A well worn subject but never mind...

I just saw a fascinating program on the blues in the UK, starting in the 60’s with bands like “The Cream” “Spencer Davis” “Alexis Korner”. Some of these bands took their form of the blues to the USA where it was appreciated by many of the originators.

One reason for their gratitude (other than that they played from the heart) was that all of a sudden the white youth of America took an interest in blues, and blues-men like “Muddy Waters” “B.B King” “John Lee Hooker” became popular. They have never really looked back! I remember as a lad in the sixties/seventies when black blues singers came over here and had the clubs rocking…Aahh those were the days!

I think there is an interesting parallel to Irish music and the rest of the world popularising it. There are many different opinions on the mimicking/copying of another cultures music, but to my mind it is an essential part of musical growth.

Any comments?

Dave.

[chas]

I heard a radio show on Blind Faith a few years back, and one of the reasons the band lasted such a short time was their failure to recognize that, while Winwood was the big star in the UK, Clapton was the big star in the US.

Back to the original subject, there was the big bossa nova splash in the US (was that Stan Getz?), and more recently, Cuban music getting a boost from Ry Cooder. Also the folk (trad English, Irish, and American) revolution brought to us by Martin Carthy, Joan Baez, Sean O'Riada and others. That wasn't from another country, but definitely another time.

I really do wish that we Westerners were a little more receptive to music from other cultures. Listening to a master of, say the oud or koto, isn't something I want to do every day, but I'd sure like to hear it on the radio more frequently than I do now.

[Zubivka]

I really do wish that we Westerners were a little more receptive to music from other cultures. Listening to a master of, say the oud or koto, isn't something I want to do every day, but I'd sure like to hear it on the radio more frequently than I do now.

Blues, trad music were a start to get ears atuned to modal music as opposed to Western tonal music.

Here in Europe, the influences seem wider--there's even some Oud rock (!) called "Rai" from Algeria on French public radios, and other exotic things.

On the other hand, our "Conservatoires" of Music remain shrines of... conservatism, and won't teach jazz as a legitimate music. As a result, youth has totally turned away from "classic" music. Thus, their growing openness to foreign influences doesn't make their musical scope wider for that matter

[Wombat]

I recently posted to the ITM board (Devish thread) the opinion that bands like Dervish and Solas are performing the same function for ITM that bands like Cream and the early Stones performed for the blues. Now there is a blues section with plenty of pure drop recordings in every small town record store—well, here there is.

There is also a 'world' music section and in most sizable record stores a celtic music section. This would not have been possible without some attempt to popularise the musics but, once the ear is accustomed, many go on to the real thing. A lot of top African musicians have complained about their music being called 'African' or, worse, 'world.' I think it was Papa Wemba who complained 'we aren't a style or a passing fashion, we're a whole continent.' He's right of course, but in the modern world of small shops and simple marketing strategies, he fails to appreciate what a huge improvement this is. it's also brought him to audiences he could never have reached and i suspect given him paychecks he could never have dreamt of. In the early 60s your local shop wouldn't have had a single African LP, in all likelihood. Blues was represented, if at all, by a Josh White LP and a Leadbelly, snuggling up to a Peter, Paul and Mary in the folk racks. There was no world music or celtic section at all but their might be a 'foreign' section. Foreign contained schmaltzy orchestras and titles like 'postcard from Samoa' with a very Western looking girl in a bikini on the cover. For celtic, look under male vocal and you just might fine Val Doonican and Andy (no M.) Stewart.

In universities accessible from my place—about 7 or 8 for daily commuters—you can find the traditional classical tuition but also courses on jazz, ethnomusicology, pop culture and so on. I don't know if you can do a degree in rock guitar but who would need to? You can't do all of these things in each university—some probably don't even have music schools—but if you have the ability you'll find a place in one that does what you want.

[GaryKelly]

I heard a fascinating report on the radio a few weeks ago regarding a scientific analysis attempting to link music with language... Sadly I can't find a reference to the source material on the web. But basically, investigators were curious as to why 'folk' music varies so much from country to country, and wondered whether the style of music was in any way linked to local language.

Apparently, they said, it was. After analysing recorded speech and recorded music, 'they' reckoned there was a definite link between language sounds, inflexions, rhythm etc and local 'folk' music. This, they suggested, is why "eastern" music sounds 'strange' to western ears, since western languages are so radically different (in terms of sound) than eastern ones.

I did, however, find some interesting brain/language/music stuff on the web, which is worth a read I reckon:

http://www.educationthroughmusic.com/brainarticles.htm

As for local radio over here, I well remember the 'explosion' of interest in "South American panpipe music" back in the early 80's when "Incantation" hit the charts. Suddenly every "popular" radio station was carrying music few if any had heard before (it launched a revival, where panpipes are concerned). Why? Money, basically.

You won't hear much World Folk on BBC Radio 1 unless someone has an unexpected top-20 hit...the way Incantation did back in '82.

my 2p

[brewerpaul]

I really do wish that we Westerners were a little more receptive to music from other cultures. Listening to a master of, say the oud or koto, isn't something I want to do every day, but I'd sure like to hear it on the radio more frequently than I do now.

Absolutely!! It is all too easy to get into a major rut listening to only one type of music. Listening to the greats on ANY instrument is a very enlightening experience. If you want to expand your ideas of what an end blown flute can sound like, listen to a Shakuhachi master. The control that these people have over a simple bamboo flute is astounding.
Listen to everything you can. You may not like a lot of it, but it will certainly expand your horizons. That's never a bad thing.

[blackhawk]

If you want to expand your ideas of what an end blown flute can sound like, listen to a Shakuhachi master.

Paul, can you recommend a good representative recording?

[brewerpaul]

[quote="blackhawk
Paul, can you recommend a good representative recording?[/quote]

No, but check here: http://www.shakuhachi.com/

[Wombat]

If you want to expand your ideas of what an end blown flute can sound like, listen to a Shakuhachi master.

Paul, can you recommend a good representative recording?

This isn't really an area of expertise for me, although I have friend who plays shak competently. The following records come highly recommended:

Yoshikazu Iwamoto, The Spirit of Dusk (Buda/Musique du Monde, France)
Kohachiro Miyata Shakuhachi—The Japanese Flute (Nonesuch Explorer, USA)
Various Artists Lullabye For the Moon (EMI Hemisphere, UK)
Various Artists Music of the Shakuhachi (JVC Victor, Japan)

[feadogin]

In universities accessible from my place—about 7 or 8 for daily commuters—you can find the traditional classical tuition but also courses on jazz, ethnomusicology, pop culture and so on.

I hear you can get a degree in traditional Irish music at the University of Limerick. Someone told me he was thinking of getting his Masters' there in Uilleann piping! Wouldn't that be cool....

Justine

[Wombat]

In universities accessible from my place—about 7 or 8 for daily commuters—you can find the traditional classical tuition but also courses on jazz, ethnomusicology, pop culture and so on.

I hear you can get a degree in traditional Irish music at the University of Limerick. Someone told me he was thinking of getting his Masters' there in Uilleann piping! Wouldn't that be cool....

Justine

It's becoming increasingly possible to do this sort of thing. If someone did a survey of just what it is possible to do these days, we'd probably all get a big surprise. Universities around the world have loosened up a lot but academics and professional concert musicians were already doing a lot of work in bringing ethnomusicological material to light and making it available. Bartok was (one of?) the first to do field recordings of folk music. It's good too that in most places you can study performance, or theory, or a mixture of both.

[burnsbyrne]

A well worn subject but never mind...

I just saw a fascinating program on the blues in the UK, starting in the 60’s with bands like “The Cream” “Spencer Davis” “Alexis Korner”. Some of these bands took their form of the blues to the USA where it was appreciated by many of the originators.

One reason for their gratitude (other than that they played from the heart) was that all of a sudden the white youth of America took an interest in blues, and blues-men like “Muddy Waters” “B.B King” “John Lee Hooker” became popular. They have never really looked back! I remember as a lad in the sixties/seventies when black blues singers came over here and had the clubs rocking…Aahh those were the days!

I think there is an interesting parallel to Irish music and the rest of the world popularising it. There are many different opinions on the mimicking/copying of another cultures music, but to my mind it is an essential part of musical growth.

Any comments?

Dave.

I think that it's great as long as the "outside group" musicians do it with respect and go back to the original sources to learn. An example of what not to do would be saying, "I know all about IrTrad music because I have every CD that Enya has put out." I have nothing against Enya but what she does is not IrTrad. Yuo have to imerse yourself in the culture whose music you are trying to learn.
Mike

[Nanohedron]

Speaking of cross-cultural musicianship, I was at the park with a friend playing ITM for our enjoyment (one passerby proffered a dollar for our efforts ), and when we left, we came upon a music class for sanshin, the Okinawan precursor to the Japanese shamisen. For Minneapolis parks, that's about as obscure as it gets. One of the students was a Caucasian male. That's the cross-cultural part.

Of course, I had to take a peek at the notation they were using. It was interesting, vertically arranged, and unlike anything I'd seen before. It was also all a relief; my friend had said earlier that he'd sworn he had heard a banjo in the offing.

[Wombat]

I think that it's great as long as the "outside group" musicians do it with respect and go back to the original sources to learn. An example of what not to do would be saying, "I know all about IrTrad music because I have every CD that Enya has put out." I have nothing against Enya but what she does is not IrTrad. Yuo have to imerse yourself in the culture whose music you are trying to learn.
Mike

I don't think it can work this way Mike. Obviously, it shouldn't degenerate into minstrelsy. But those teenaged middle-class English kids hadn't and couldn't immerse themselves in the culture of African Americans and the music would never have found a wider audience if they had. What they played was, IMO, a hybrid of blues and the less bluesy beat music popular in England at the time. Some sounded a lot like those they modeled themselves on but most didn't. That's why they could become popular. They were familiar enough to be accessible but different enough to be really interesting, like the door to a hidden and endlessly exciting world.

Once you stop comparing the Cream and Rolling Stones with Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf, you can actually hear the music for what it is ..a hybrid interesting in it's own terms but not really the real thing. The vast majority of people who liked these bands never went on to a lasting love of the originators. But most knew a few names, went to concerts, bought a few records and made life a lot more comfortable for the blues musicians in a position to cash in. Now there are thousands of people world wide who like real blues. But this wouldn't have been possible without the hybrid British blues and beat music and the millions of people who liked that. Real purists will always be the tip of the iceberg. You can't have all tip and no iceberg.

[blackhawk]

If you want to expand your ideas of what an end blown flute can sound like, listen to a Shakuhachi master.

Paul, can you recommend a good representative recording?

This isn't really an area of expertise for me, although I have friend who plays shak competently. The following records come highly recommended:

Yoshikazu Iwamoto, The Spirit of Dusk (Buda/Musique du Monde, France)
Kohachiro Miyata Shakuhachi—The Japanese Flute (Nonesuch Explorer, USA)
Various Artists Lullabye For the Moon (EMI Hemisphere, UK)
Various Artists Music of the Shakuhachi (JVC Victor, Japan)

Excellent! thanks, Wombat!