Double hole whistles?

[Cyberknight]

As for C natural holes, I've never seen the point of those

Here you make the argument that I feel many people will make about a 10-hole whistle (though I'm certainly able to be wrong on these things). They won't see the point since a standard 6-hole whistle will get the job done for the majority of music they're liable to play.

But again, why would you need to tape the C natural hole? You can just keep it covered; taping it is pointless.

Because a thumb hole necessitates keeping your thumb in the precise position required to cover the hole. Taping it doesn't.

And finally, nothing you're saying is a real criticism to 10-hole chromatic whistles like the Morneaux Mark 1.

You may be feeling a little defensive. Which may be understandable. I gave no criticism about 10-hole whistles of any kind. My commentary was more about myself finding no use for one and about my guesses as to the community's feeling about them. And my prognostication that perhaps and especially at first, it would be considered a curiosity, and it would take some time before becoming commonly accepted--if ever. I didn't even give any discouragement about making the experiment, and specifically pointed out that having a limited market at the start was not necessarily a reason not to try.

No, my criticism of the C natural hole is that it's pointless because there's another EASY way to play C natural. This is nothing like arguing that other holes - like an F natural hole for example - are pointless. F natural holes allow you to play notes that are ordinarily extremely difficult to play quickly and in tune, so they're not pointless at all.

On a broader note, you definitely were trying to criticize the idea of a chromatic whistle. Indeed, saying you have "no use" for one and then arguing that the community won't like them IS a criticism of them, by definition. And of course, there's nothing wrong with your criticizing them. Just as there's nothing wrong with my responding to your criticism. And I thank you for clarifying your position.

That said, I don't think your criticism is valid. The fact is that if you have a modicum of patience, it isn't a big deal to cover up an extra hole with your thumb. Yes, it constrains the position of your thumbs a tiny bit. But this isn't a big deal, because your thumbs normally don't move while you're playing at all. And you should be putting them in the same position on the whistle every time you play; if you're moving them around all the time, that's bad technique. All having an F natural hole does is require you to put it in a certain position every time - something you'll get used to very quickly if you try it out for a week. And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, because I have friends who play Burke whistles with C natural holes that they never use. They simply cover them with their left thumbs and forget the holes are even there.

I don't know, some people enjoy having a toolbox full of items, some people enjoy carrying a swiss army knife. Courses for horses.

That's what's made me giggle about the whole thing. People with chromatic whistles would still end up with half a drawerful of them, just like people with whistles in different keys, because none of them is exactly right for everything.

The Swiss Army knife with all the tools usually gets left at home, because the one with just a blade and a screwdriver is more useable and less bulky.

This comment is quite silly. You're trying to insult people who have chromatic whistles (for some reason) while also throwing all the people with differently-keyed whistles under the bus. So you don't like chromatic whistles OR whistles that play in other keys? Someone really must like the keys of D and G lol. I personally like having a few different whistles for different purposes, so I usually carry around 5 or 6 whistles (the Morneaux included). None of them end up in the drawer, unless they're practically unplayable.

At any rate, if you bought one whistle and it was perfect for you so you never wanted another one, that's good for you. But most of us like trying different things out, and there's not a thing wrong with that. We also like playing in other keys without giving ourselves a headache, which is why we have a few whistles in some other keys (or, in my case, a chromatic model).

People who have only ever tried one whistle are typically the same people who play loudly and out of tune at sessions without even realizing it. But hey, I'm just making a broad generalization, just like yours.

« What we have here, is a failure to communicate. »

I find that the people who are making points that I understand and agree with are communicating more clearly at each attempt.

I am curious to know the *traditional* music genres for which a chromatic whistle is used.

You can use a chromatic whistle for many traditional music genres. For one thing, you can play ITM in basically any key, all on the same whistle. So you can play D major tunes, D minor tunes, tunes in F, etc. You can also play traditional Scottish music in E (a fairly common key) without too much difficulty.

Then you can play more modern ITM stuff that incorporates elements of chromaticism into it, notably melodic minor. [EDIT: the following example is actually a Galician tune] For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgPufcmYUlo

If you really want to branch out a bit more, you can also use it to play Renaissance, Medieval, or Classical stuff (stuff you might ordinarily play on a recorder or English flageolet). I like to play Classical-era English hornpipes on mine. And then you can also use it to play tunes from various Near Eastern cultures.

[Kedster]

I don't know, some people enjoy having a toolbox full of items, some people enjoy carrying a swiss army knife. Courses for horses.

That's what's made me giggle about the whole thing. People with chromatic whistles would still end up with half a drawerful of them, just like people with whistles in different keys, because none of them is exactly right for everything.

The Swiss Army knife with all the tools usually gets left at home, because the one with just a blade and a screwdriver is more useable and less bulky.

I mean one of the greatest benefits on having (at least one) chromatic flute is being able to explore and compose tunes on it on the go. Perhaps a keyboard or a guitar is better for that niche, but if you like blowing ( ) you'd probably rather a chromatic flute to see if that weird japanese or arabian scale is a nicer fit. Then you can go ask Erik the flutemaker to make your dream F# Double-Augmented Hijaz flute for you.

There are benefits to versatile instruments.

[Cyberknight]

There are benefits to versatile instruments.

Wow, what a novel concept.

I never thought I'd be on a forum where serious musicians would dispute this...that was before I encountered the Irish whistle-playing community.

[Kedster]

There are benefits to versatile instruments.

Wow, what a novel concept.

I never thought I'd be on a forum where serious musicians would dispute this...that was before I encountered the Irish whistle-playing community.

I mean to be fair, you're arguing that 10 hole chromatic whistles is superior in every way, which is quite untrue, for example every single whistle fits me because I play right hand up as opposed to traditional left hand way up; making more holes is always going to increase production time and costs and "Things That Can Go Wrong"; there are already people playing whistle with existing health conditions that can barely manage to get by with 6 holes, making 10 holes obligatory means fewer people with certain health conditions are able to play them - etc etc.

Go and try to position your hands on the stock Generation whistle body for 10 holes and tell me it's an easy affair, however you put it. it's very crampy - so you need to inrease the bore size, and so that effects the tone, and there's a whole chain reaction to it.

So yeah, you're not helping your case by claiming that 10 hole fipple blade is superior in every single way bar the ignorance; as you get defensive about your position so too people as you blatantly disrespect the simplicity of 6 hole design and how it helps children to very sick elderly play easy tunes with a lot less mental baggage.

The whole reason I stopped playing the concert flute, despite being in love with embouchure style playing, is because of cramping. Putting my hands on for 10 hole whistle gives me PTSD flashbacks - it just feels harder. This isn't as easy as you say - just as another person telling me "Just deal with it" for the D#, you telling people that 10 hole design is "almost the same, deal with it" has the same condescending tone to it, which people dislike.

So for these reasons and many others, six hole whistle is most likely to stay - there's a reason why MK Chamelon has sold only around 22 whistles while Generation has made 700k whistle sales last year. Accessibility is incredibly important, a key aspect you also seem to be ignoring.

[Cyberknight]

There are benefits to versatile instruments.

Wow, what a novel concept.

I never thought I'd be on a forum where serious musicians would dispute this...that was before I encountered the Irish whistle-playing community.

I mean to be fair, you're arguing that 10 hole chromatic whistles is superior in every way, which is quite untrue, for example every single whistle fits me because I play right hand up as opposed to traditional left hand way up; making more holes is always going to increase production time and costs and "Things That Can Go Wrong"; there are already people playing whistle with existing health conditions that can barely manage to get by with 6 holes, making 10 holes obligatory means fewer people with certain health conditions are able to play them - etc etc.

Go and try to position your hands on the stock Generation whistle body for 10 holes and tell me it's an easy affair, however you put it. it's very crampy - so you need to inrease the bore size, and so that effects the tone, and there's a whole chain reaction to it.

So yeah, you're not helping your case by claiming that 10 hole fipple blade is superior in every single way bar the ignorance; as you get defensive about your position so too people as you blatantly disrespect the simplicity of 6 hole design and how it helps children to very sick elderly play easy tunes with a lot less mental baggage.

So for these reasons and many others, six hole whistle is most likely to stay - there's a reason why MK Chamelon has sold only around 22 whistles while Generation has made 700k whistle sales last year. Accessibility is incredibly important, a key aspect you also seem to be ignoring.

I don't recall saying "superior in every way." I said that I thought it was a simple design change with lots of benefits and no major drawbacks for the average player. I never meant to imply that it would be better for literally anyone, even someone who (for example) plays with right hand up, or who doesn't play with their bottom pinky down. And you're 100% correct that for the full 10 holes, that's only going to work on a stalky instrument. It wouldn't work for a small whistle like a Generation (but an F natural hole still would work, and a D sharp hole likely would too). And I wasn't including special cases like people who have medical conditions. I was obviously making a generalization when I said there was "no downside" to adding a D sharp hole - you're just pointing to very special and unusual cases where there might actually be downsides.

And I also never talked about making anything obligatory. Nor did I "blatantly disrespect" anything or anyone. I didn't even say anything negative whatsoever about a 6-hole design. Literally all I said was that I loved the design of my chromatic whistle - specifically, the inclusion of D sharp and F natural holes, which can be added to basically any whistle; that I couldn't see any downsides to it (which I meant for the average player, not to literally anyone); and that I wished it was "standard" (which I later qualified as meaning that I wish it was a standard option, i.e. that it was much more common and that mainstream manufacturers made it). Then people proceeded to bombard me with BS criticisms and personal attacks, which I'm naturally going to respond to. Seriously, go back and read this thread from the start. It consists of me celebrating what I consider to be an excellent design, saying absolutely nothing negative about anyone, and then a group of curmudgeons comes and starts trying to rain on my parade.

Also, MK Chameleons aren't unpopular because of accessibility issues (unless you're including price as an accessibility issue). They're unpopular because they cost $1000, which is a ludicrous price for a low D whistle. 10-hole whistles can be made almost as inexpensively as 6-hole whistles. F natural holes in particular cost basically nothing to add and can be added to virtually any whistle. So what I'm advocating is actually a more "accessible" alternative than MK's keyed approach.

[Kedster]

Wow, what a novel concept.

I never thought I'd be on a forum where serious musicians would dispute this...that was before I encountered the Irish whistle-playing community.

I mean to be fair, you're arguing that 10 hole chromatic whistles is superior in every way, which is quite untrue, for example every single whistle fits me because I play right hand up as opposed to traditional left hand way up; making more holes is always going to increase production time and costs and "Things That Can Go Wrong"; there are already people playing whistle with existing health conditions that can barely manage to get by with 6 holes, making 10 holes obligatory means fewer people with certain health conditions are able to play them - etc etc.

Go and try to position your hands on the stock Generation whistle body for 10 holes and tell me it's an easy affair, however you put it. it's very crampy - so you need to inrease the bore size, and so that effects the tone, and there's a whole chain reaction to it.

So yeah, you're not helping your case by claiming that 10 hole fipple blade is superior in every single way bar the ignorance; as you get defensive about your position so too people as you blatantly disrespect the simplicity of 6 hole design and how it helps children to very sick elderly play easy tunes with a lot less mental baggage.

So for these reasons and many others, six hole whistle is most likely to stay - there's a reason why MK Chamelon has sold only around 22 whistles while Generation has made 700k whistle sales last year. Accessibility is incredibly important, a key aspect you also seem to be ignoring.

I don't recall saying "superior in every way." I said that I thought it was a simple design change with lots of benefits and no major drawbacks for the average player. I never meant to imply that it would be better for literally anyone, even someone who (for example) plays with right hand up, or who doesn't play with their bottom pinky down. And you're 100% correct that for the full 10 holes, that's only going to work on a stalky instrument. It wouldn't work for a small whistle like a Generation (but an F natural hole still would work, and a D sharp hole likely would too). And I wasn't including special cases like people who have medical conditions. I was obviously making a generalization when I said there was "no downside" to adding a D sharp hole - you're just pointing to very special and unusual cases where there might actually be downsides.

And I also never talked about making anything obligatory. Nor did I "blatantly disrespect" anything or anyone. I didn't even say anything negative whatsoever about a 6-hole design. Literally all I said was that I loved the design of my chromatic whistle - specifically, the inclusion of D sharp and F natural holes, which can be added to basically any whistle; that I couldn't see any downsides to it (which I meant for the average player, not to literally anyone); and that I wished it was "standard" (which I later qualified as meaning that I wish it was much more common and that mainstream manufacturers made it). Then people proceeded to bombard me with BS criticisms and personal attacks, which I'm naturally going to respond to. Seriously, go back and read this thread from the start. It consists of me celebrating what I consider to be an excellent design, saying absolutely nothing negative about anyone, and then a group of curmudgeons comes and starts trying to rain on my parade.

Also, MK Chameleons aren't unpopular because of accessibility issues (unless you're including price as an accessibility issue). They're unpopular because they cost $1000, which is a ludicrous price for a low D whistle. 10-hole whistles can be made almost as inexpensively as 6-hole whistles. F natural holes in particular cost basically nothing to add and can be added to virtually any whistle. So what I'm advocating is actually a more "accessible" alternative than MK's keyed approach.

As I said: it's fine if you think that is what you need for your own instrument. Advocating it should be standard is a different matter.

The beauty of the whistle is its simplicity. It is never going to be a fully chromatic instrument. As it happens, I have a fully keyed 19th century whistle. That is fine, it has the full range of accidentals but is it fully chromatic in the sense it able to play in many different keys? No, ofcourse it isn't.

I like to think there is a reason why these things never caught on. And it is not because of a lack of ambition among players.

An overwhelming majority of whistleplayers play a type of music that doesn't require a full range of accidentals, and the ones that are occasionally needed are fairly easy to half hole. Does that need practice? Ofcourse it does but once you put that in, it's not particularly hard. Having the ambition to be fully at home with the instrument and make most of its strengths and weaknesses is all that is required.

Adding more holes or even keys is fine if you think you need it in your own music making. For most of us it would be a distraction, a complication and an unnecessary addition to the cost of the instrument.

Ok, I guess I see your point. Maybe it shouldn't be the standard; at the very least, however, I wish it was more common than it is. And I also don't really understand why people are so resistant to it. As I previously mentioned, there are NO downsides to adding a couple more holes. It doesn't make the instrument any harder to play - just more flexible. So the fact that there's no compelling reason NOT to do it, combined with the immense advantages it offers whenever you want to play certain (admittedly uncommon) notes, makes me wish it was much more common than it is.

I don't know what you're arguing for anymore, mate.

Increasing 6 holes to 10 holes increases the number of holes by almost %100. Humans re simple creatures - I think you severely underestimate the amount of mental stamina it takes to keep track of six fingers to ten fingers. Hand cramping is real.

You're bang on why MK doesn't sell - because to make a keyed instrument with so many holes costs R+D time and money, same as with recalibrating every whistle design to 10 hole schemes. You said you don't understand why people are so resistant to it -economic factors, manual accessibility, these are all very important things. You think it doesn't make the instrument any harder to play - it does, and it does make it harder to develop, to sell, to resell, and all. This is not brain science.

Luckily, there are adventurous luthiers making interesting designs. Yet vast majority of people apparently don't see the need to increase complexity when their traditional music is played %99 on a single basic design. I don't know how that's confusing.

Finally, if you don't think 10 hole design is superior in every way, it means you acknowledge there's benefits and drawbacks to the ten hole and six hole designs, and each have their place and time.

[Cyberknight]

I don't know what you're arguing for anymore, mate.

Increasing 6 holes to 10 holes increases the number of holes by almost %100. Humans re simple creatures - I think you severely underestimate the amount of mental stamina it takes to keep track of six fingers to ten fingers. Hand cramping is real.

You're bang on why MK doesn't sell - because to make a keyed instrument with so many holes costs R+D time and money, same as with recalibrating every whistle design to 10 hole schemes. You said you don't understand why people are so resistant to it -economic factors, manual accessibility, these are all very important things. You think it doesn't make the instrument any harder to play - it does, and it does make it harder to develop, to sell, to resell, and all. This is not brain science.

Luckily, there are adventurous luthiers making interesting designs. Yet vast majority of people apparently don't see the need to increase complexity when their traditional music is played %99 on a single basic design. I don't know how that's confusing.

Finally, if you don't think 10 hole design is superior in every way, it means you acknowledge there's benefits and drawbacks to the ten hole and six hole designs, and each have their place and time.

You don't know what I'm arguing? I thought I made it clear by now. I'm arguing something very simple: Morneaux's 10-hole design is really excellent. It has few drawbacks and a lot of benefits. Therefore, I wish it was a standard option that major whistlemakers offered (not "the" standard option, just "a" standard option, as I clarified in the second post you quoted). That's literally it. Is that such an absurd thing to claim? Does it really warrant 8 pages of arguing?

As for mental stamina, no, I don't think I'm underestimating anything. I'm speaking from personal experience, and I'm not superhuman. I bought my Morneaux when I was an intermediate/beginner player, and I didn't find 10 holes to be significantly more difficult than 6. You may not believe this, because it's counterintuitive I suppose, but keep in mind that you haven't tried this whistle design, and I have. After a week or 2 of practice, it really doesn't feel any more difficult. Why not? Because the extra holes are only used for accidentals, and if you don't want to use them, you just keep them covered by not moving your fingers that normally don't move in the first place.

You're also missing the fact that the reason MKs are so expensive is because keys in particular are expensive, especially when you 3D print them. No 3D printing or hinges or any other such shenanigans are necessary on 8-hole or 10-hole whistles. And if all you're doing is adding D sharp, F natural, or C natural holes, you don't even need to "recalibrate" anything. The extra holes only affect one note each - the accidental being played. Thus, you literally just add the holes to your existing design, and it works.

All this to say: No, adding 2-4 extra holes to whistle designs is not going to make them prohibitively expensive or require anyone to do a wholescale design change. It adds some complexity to the design, which is obviously going to make it slightly more expensive. Maybe you'll have to spend $50 on a whistle instead of $30, or $150 instead of $100. But it's not going to make whistles prohibitively expensive like the MK.

And the most important point is that you're still acting as though I'm advocating getting rid of the 6-hole whistle, which is something I neither said nor implied anywhere on this thread. If people want 6-hole whistles as a cheaper option, or if they think it's easier or more traditional, or if they have a disability, etc., then they can buy a 6-hole whistle. 6-hole whistles obviously aren't going anywhere, and I never said they should. I just said I wish chromatic models would enter the mainstream.

[Mr.Gumby]

Then you can play more modern ITM stuff that incorporates elements of chromaticism into it, notably melodic minor. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgPufcmYUlo

FYI, that's Galician music. Nothing to do whatsoever with Irish music, modern or otherwise. And, again, if you need a whistle for that sort of thing, that's fine but please, don't confuse things.

[Cyberknight]

Then you can play more modern ITM stuff that incorporates elements of chromaticism into it, notably melodic minor. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgPufcmYUlo

FYI, that's Galician music. Nothing to do whatsoever with Irish music, modern or otherwise. And, again, if you need a whistle for that sort of thing, that's fine but please, don't confuse things.

Oops, my mistake. All the same, it's pretty cool that you can play Galician music on it.

[Tunborough]

Morneaux's 10-hole design is really excellent.

Except ...

Granted, my Morneaux chromatic has a rather weak bell note.

Maybe it isn't as easy as drilling a few extra holes.

It has few drawbacks and a lot of benefits.

We have disputed both of these claims from a number of perspectives. It isn't sinking in. Ah, well ... :shrug:

[Cyberknight]

Morneaux's 10-hole design is really excellent.

Except ...

Granted, my Morneaux chromatic has a rather weak bell note.

Maybe it isn't as easy as drilling a few extra holes.

It has few drawbacks and a lot of benefits.

We have disputed both of these claims from a number of perspectives. It isn't sinking in. Ah, well ... :shrug:

Man, people really refuse to read what I write carefully on here. I specifically said earlier that, while my Morneaux has a rather weak bell note, every other Morneaux I've ever tried, including non-chromatic ones, also have equally weak bell notes. So it has nothing to do with the fact that it's chromatic.

Yes, you've disputed my claims, and I've countered your disputations with counterarguments. That's how debate works. I guess by "sinking in," you mean that you expect me to just roll over and admit defeat every time someone raises an argument that is illogical or directly counter to my own personal experience. No thanks, I'd rather defend my position.

[Mr.Gumby]

Oops, my mistake. All the same, it's pretty cool that you can play Galician music on it.

Puts your argument in favour of the whistle as modern ITM moves towards more chromatism in a different light though, doesn't it?

Please stop digging. Everything that could be said on this tread has been said. Several times.

[Cyberknight]

Oops, my mistake. All the same, it's pretty cool that you can play Galician music on it.

Puts your argument in favour of the whistle as modern ITM moves towards more chromatism in a different light though, doesn't it?

Please stop digging. Everything that could be said on this tread has been said. Several times.

No, it really doesn't. Because there are many examples of modern ITM that have chromaticism. The fact that the tune I linked to happened to be Galician doesn't change this. The main point of that video was that it shows how the whistle can play somewhat chromatically with relative ease.

I'll stop responding when people stop bringing up new points.

[Mr.Gumby]

I had wondered what exactly you had in mind when you brought up that argument. When this was the example you came up with I couldn't help giving you a little Take that how you will but I hope you can see the irony that made me smile.

No, it really doesn't. Because there are many examples of modern ITM that have chromaticism.

Or, on second thought, perhaps you don't.

I'll stop responding when people stop bringing up new points.

Have there been new points? I think there has been a lot of restating of points made earlier, with you digging in further in response.

[Wanderer]

On a broader note, you definitely were trying to criticize the idea of a chromatic whistle. Indeed, saying you have "no use" for one and then arguing that the community won't like them IS a criticism of them, by definition.

I disagree. I don't have any use for golf shoes instead of sneakers, either. But my saying so in no way is a criticism of the idea of golf shoes. Someone can extol the benefits of golf shoes to me all day, but it's not likely they're going to convince me that I need a pair, no matter how good those shoes may be--or how useful they may be to someone who does need a pair. And my guess that most of the people I know don't need golf shoes either is also not a criticism of the shoes. Especially when I concede that there's a (albeit smaller) use case for golf shoes for those who might feel they need them. That's what I mean about you seeming defensive. I'm not attacking you or your idea. I'm just making the conjecture that even if the design pans out, it will be a smaller market. That seems to me a realistic theory.

I'll take your advice that I need to improve my technique (re: my thumbs) under advisement.

Which is why I'm butchering some PVC pipes now to see if and why I can't get a D# hole on an otherwise whistle design.

How's this coming along, by the way?