Cylindrical bores and the octave spread problem

[Cyberknight]

I always thought that having too little "octave spread" - i.e., the tendency of the whistle to be too flat in the second octave and too sharp in the first octave - was an inherent problem with cylindrical bore whistles, particularly larger bore ones. I assumed this was the case because it was true of every cylindrical whistle I own, to varying degrees.

I just purchased a whistle made by Colin Goldie. It's cylindrical, but it has (if anything) the OPPOSITE problem of having toot MUCH octave spread. The second octave is sharper than the first. So apparently, my assumption was completely wrong. Cylindrical whistles, even large bore ones, don't need to have too little octave spread. They can even have too much octave spread. Which makes me wonder why I've never encountered one that has NO octave spread at all. (EDIT: after getting more used to my Goldie whistle, I'm wobbling back and forth over whether the octave spread is too great or not).

What gives? How do you change octave spread from whistle to whistle? Does it have to do with the head design, or something else? And why does this seem to be such a pervasive problem with so many whistles? Why can't designers get this right?

Also, sometimes how you tune the whistle can affect the spread, it seems. My cylindrical whistles seem to have greater octave spread the further I tune them in, making them more in-tune the when it's cold and I have to push them all the way in to get to 440 tuning. But on my Morneaux (which is conical), how you tune the whistle doesn't seem to affect octave spread very much. There isn't any significant octave spread no matter how you tune it.

[Tunborough]

What gives? How do you change octave spread from whistle to whistle? Does it have to do with the head design, or something else?

I don't know how Colin does it, but there are options. You can increase the relative spread by having a conical body, that gets smaller toward the foot, with a cylindrical head, or by having a cylindrical body and a taper in the head, that gets smaller toward the top. A little taper in the head can make a big difference if the dimensions are right. See related discussions at viewtopic.php?p=1212419#p1212419 for flutes, and viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108141 for whistles. The size of the window can also affect the octave spread, and on thick-bodied whistles I understand you can undercut the toneholes to control the spread on individual notes.

[Cyberknight]

What gives? How do you change octave spread from whistle to whistle? Does it have to do with the head design, or something else?

I don't know how Colin does it, but there are options. You can increase the relative spread by having a conical body, that gets smaller toward the foot, with a cylindrical head, or by having a cylindrical body and a taper in the head, that gets smaller toward the top. A little taper in the head can make a big difference if the dimensions are right. See related discussions at viewtopic.php?p=1212419#p1212419 for flutes, and viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108141 for whistles. The size of the window can also affect the octave spread, and on thick-bodied whistles I understand you can undercut the toneholes to control the spread on individual notes.

Thanks for the info! It looks like there's a slight taper in the head of my Goldie, so I guess that's how he fixes the issue. The more I play it, the more I'm getting used to playing the second octave more gently, and it really is perfectly in tune in both octaves (unless you're in a very hot room).

I wonder why more makers don't do this. Man, I'd love to have a Susato with the octave spread issue fixed. Maybe I'll try the "putty" solution that the OP mentioned in the whistle thread you linked to, and see if that helps.

[Moof]

My MK Pro low D is also sharp in the upper octave if I don't adjust to it.

You can set it up so that the upper octave is in tune at normal air speed/pressure, meaning you have to blow the lower octave a bit more strongly to lift it into tune. Or you can tune it so that the lower octave's in tune at normal pressure and the upper octave tends sharp unless you hold back the air a bit.

This approach to tuning means the top A and B still sound disproportionately loud compared to everything else, but it doesn't seem as bad as some whistles I've tried. It's one of the reasons I like it so much.

If there is no Goldilocks design and you always have to choose a relatively flat upper octave vs a relatively sharp one, I'd choose the latter because of the effect it has on the volume balance.

[Cyberknight]

My MK Pro low D is also sharp in the upper octave if I don't adjust to it.

You can set it up so that the upper octave is in tune at normal air speed/pressure, meaning you have to blow the lower octave a bit more strongly to lift it into tune. Or you can tune it so that the lower octave's in tune at normal pressure and the upper octave tends sharp unless you hold back the air a bit.

This approach to tuning means the top A and B still sound disproportionately loud compared to everything else, but it doesn't seem as bad as some whistles I've tried. It's one of the reasons I like it so much.

If there is no Goldilocks design and you always have to choose a relatively flat upper octave vs a relatively sharp one, I'd choose the latter because of the effect it has on the volume balance.

I totally agree! But I think the 2013 Goldie I have might be overkill. It's SO sharp in the second octave that it's extremely difficult to play it in tune, even if you're carefully under-blowing the second octave. I hope I get used to it! [EDIT: I am getting used to it. I can't really make head or tale of what I'm changing, but sometimes it seems I can play it perfectly in tune, even in my very warm room, and other times I can't. Must be an embouchure thing].

[pancelticpiper]

I find this thread puzzling because I've not encountered a Goldie with a sharp 2nd octave.

So currently I own three Goldies, a Low C, Low D, and mezzo F, and I've owned and borrowed and tried quite a few Goldies over the years.

Now of course any whistle's tuning is a product of how it's blown. But around 15 years ago I went on a big Low D buying and borrowing spree, during which I did detailed comparisons of all the significant performance aspects of a large number of Low D whistles from every maker I could get my hands on, giving me a clear idea of what "average" or "normal" performance is, regarding octave tuning and blowing requirements.

Of my Goldies, the Low D's 2nd octave is absolutely bang-on given "normal" blowing, right down the middle of the 40 of so Low D's I've put through their paces.

(The Low C and mezzo F have 2nd octaves which are tuned a tiny hair flatter, being quite effortless to blow into tune.)

Pretty much all of what I considered to be the best Low D makes had similar down-the-middle 2nd octave tunings.

Many of the makes of Low D had slightly flatter 2nd octaves, and a couple had 2nd octaves so flat that they weren't really playable, because even underblowing the low octave so that it was a feeble whisper and overblowing the 2nd octave till it was blasting (and taking a huge volume of air) couldn't quite bring the octaves into tune.

Two whistles, the MK and the Optima (with moulded plastic top) had sharp 2nd octaves.

The MK (I owned a half-dozen different MK Low D's, to give the sample-size) had a slightly sharp 2nd octave which wasn't any trouble to play in tune.

The benefit was a more even volume differential between the octaves, due to the need of strongly blowing the low octave and backing off a bit on the 2nd octave.

The Kerry Optima (I only tried one) had a 2nd octave so sharp that it was unplayable, because overblowing the low octave so strongly that the notes were breaking to the 2nd octave, and underblowing the 2nd octave to the extent that the notes were dropping down into the low octave, was required to have the octaves sort of in tune.

[pancelticpiper]

In other words, trying a large number of Low D whistles didn't suggest that a flat 2nd octave was in any way endemic or characteristic of the breed.

Quite the contrary, it showed that makers could tune the octave relationship however they wanted, from extremely flat to extremely sharp.

[Cyberknight]

I find this thread puzzling because I've not encountered a Goldie with a sharp 2nd octave.

It definitely could be how I'm playing it. But I wonder if it has to do with temperature. I tend to keep my room very warm, and I have to pull the slide all the way out to get it in tune. Is your house on the cooler side? Temperature can make a large difference to how you tune your whistle and, consequently, how in-tune your whistle is with itself.

[pancelticpiper]

I wonder if it has to do with temperature. I tend to keep my room very warm, and I have to pull the slide all the way out to get it in tune. Is your house on the cooler side? Temperature can make a large difference to how you tune your whistle and, consequently, how in-tune your whistle is with itself.

For years my Goldie Low D was my "car whistle" and here in California the car's temperature regularly gets to 50c or more when parked in the sun.

Indeed the whistle might be so hot I can barely hold it and blow it.

From my experience yes the overall pitch of the whistle goes up, but the internal tuning doesn't noticeably change.

[Cyberknight]

I wonder if it has to do with temperature. I tend to keep my room very warm, and I have to pull the slide all the way out to get it in tune. Is your house on the cooler side? Temperature can make a large difference to how you tune your whistle and, consequently, how in-tune your whistle is with itself.

For years my Goldie Low D was my "car whistle" and here in California the car's temperature regularly gets to 50c or more when parked in the sun.

Indeed the whistle might be so hot I can barely hold it and blow it.

From my experience yes the overall pitch of the whistle goes up, but the internal tuning doesn't noticeably change.

Yeah, but what I mean is, I doubt you're tuning it to 440. You're probably just playing it very sharp.

In my experience, basically ANY whistle will be wildly out of tune with itself if you try to tune it to 440 in a hot car. I remember trying to tune a Susato to 440 in my car once (before I knew how much temperature affects pitch), and I had to pull the slide ALL the way out, resulting in a first octave G that was about 40 cents sharper than the second octave G. The same thing happens with my Goldie, only it's exactly the opposite problem. When I tune it to 440 in a very hot environment, the octave spread increases, and the second octave starts to get 20+ cents sharper than the first.

[Cyberknight]

One thing I should add is that I think there are a lot of factors at play here, some of which I didn't immediately consider.

One factor is likely the temperature difference. There seems to be more octave spread when I play in my (warm) room.

Another factor is that I have to learn to blow lightly in the second octave, which goes against my muscle memory, and sometimes I think I'm doing it when I'm really not.

Another huge factor (I've just now concluded) is my own perception of pitch, which is not only flawed, but seems to have been corrupted by months of playing an out-of-tune instrument.

I played a Susato for months and I think I just got so used to certain things being out of tune that when I finally hear something IN tune, my ear is thrown off and thinks it's out of tune. My Susato had a painfully flat second octave and a painfully sharp low G, which is why I stopped playing it. I think playing it for so long got my ear to expect these inaccuracies. I could've sworn my Goldie had a rather flat low G, but I recorded myself playing it and analyzed the pitch, and the two Gs are perfectly in tune with each other when I'm playing fast and making sure to blow lightly in the second octave. So it really is my own perception that appears to be bamboozling me.

This isn't to say that my Goldie doesn't have a lot of octave spread - it does, as I can confirm on my tuner. It definitely does require you to blow quite lightly in the second octave in order to keep it in tune. But the octave spread is nowhere near as severe as I was hearing in my head.