Hard blow versus soft blow

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Dougrout
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Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by Dougrout »

I’m relatively new to the whistle scene (less than a year) but totally engaged in learning to play well on a variety of keys. I recently made a big jump and purchased a Viper low D from Mike Burke. I love the deep, rich sound of the instrument, but I’m having to return it to Mike because I simply don’t have enough lung capacity to play any kind of longer phrase. I’m a senior, and I guess lung capacity is one of those things that just goes on you.

Mike has kindly offered to exchange the low D Viper for a low F instrument which he thinks might suit me, as it will require less air.

I’ve read about hard and soft blowers, but I’m confused as to what that means. Is a soft blower a whistle requiring less air? If so, what suffers as a result? Do others have the same problem? What whistles have you found that work for you? I’m most interested in low whistles (besides the Burke low F I would be interested in a low G and a low A in particular.

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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by pancelticpiper »

Yes I played a Burke Low D "viper" and it was the least air-efficient Low D I've tried, and I've tried dozens of different makes.

One cause is that Burkes in general have wider bores than other makes, of a given key. The other cause is how the mouthpiece is made, how much air passes through.

Colin Goldie is a wonderful maker who offers a variety of backpressures. His "medium blower" Low D is the most efficient Low D I've played.

One way to test efficiency is how long you can hold and support "high B" which generally takes more volume of air than any other note on a Low D whistle.

I'm going to paste what I wrote just now on the parallel thread about Colin Goldie narrow-bore Low D's.

The changes in backpressure are produced by varying the windway height.

Years ago he had three heights which he labelled "soft" "medium" and "hard" but more recently he's been offering a wider range of heights and engraving the precise windway height in millimeters inside the bell.

I have a Colin Goldie Low D and I have two interchangeable heads, one the "medium blower" and one the "soft blower". It's been interesting to spend time switching the heads back and forth on the Low D body.

In general both play "like Goldies" but there are several subtle differences.

The soft head gives slightly fatter low notes, slightly easier high notes, and slightly greater flexibility of tone. Perfect, no? But the price is slightly less efficiency, meaning more air passes through the whistle as you play.

For those sean nos airs with the long phrases I prefer the efficiency of the "medium" head.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by kkrell »

pancelticpiper wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 5:03 am The soft head gives slightly fatter low notes, slightly easier high notes, and slightly greater flexibility of tone. Perfect, no? But the price is slightly less efficiency, meaning more air passes through the whistle as you play.

For those sean nos airs with the long phrases I prefer the efficiency of the "medium" head.
Richard,
For clarity, you are saying here that a "soft" blower requires MORE air (and I assume has LOWER back pressure)?
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by Moof »

I'm currently getting to grips with a Goldie low D soft blower, chosen for the reasons Panceltic Piper gives. I can produce enough air, it's more the controlled pressure and speed needed for the top notes in certain phrases. It's partly lack of skill and experience, but also asthma. I don't have difficulty on my easygoing plastic low D, but I need to put more breath spaces into tunes if I'm using one of the other whistles.

More breath points aren't necessarily a problem in dance tunes, but some call for several high notes at points where ideally you don't want to have to take a breath. I occasionally help myself out by a bit by substituting the top B for a repeat of the preceding or following note, and in some tunes it doesn't make much difference. Others really lose something without that lift.

As I improve, I might also look into getting another head from Colin. I couldn't decide whether to go for soft or soft-medium when I ordered it, it's a guessing game unless you can try it, but I know how useful it can be from having another whistle with different head options.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by pancelticpiper »

kkrell wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 6:16 am Richard,
For clarity, you are saying here that a "soft" blower requires MORE air (and I assume has LOWER back pressure)?
Yes the narrower the windway the more resistance/backpressure there is, meaning less volume of air passes through the instrument. The instrument is thus more efficient, requiring less volume of air, meaning longer phrases can be played.

The overall playing becomes more "stiff" which is especially noticeable with the higher notes in the 2nd octave.

With the "soft blowing" wider windway there's less resistance. The instrument is more 'free blowing' as people say, and more air passes through, meaning phrases can't be quite as long.

For some reason this makes the high notes easier (less stiff) while at the same time makes the lowest notes bigger. Colin says he generally uses the "soft" head on his Low C whistles because the wider windway opens up the tone of the low notes.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by kkrell »

Thanks, Richard. Interesting the decisions one has to make.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by Byll »

...And just maybe, this is part of the reason I find Colin's narrow-bore low D so pleasant sounding and playing... I use a medium-hard blower whistle head, which should make the high notes fit into the 'stiff' - more 'resistance' / 'back pressure' description, but the upper register on this Goldie whistle is truly not stiff. It mimics the feel of higher range instruments. And the resistance is not great, at all. There is no stiffness in the tone, nor in the feedback to the player.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by pancelticpiper »

Byll wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:31 pm ...And just maybe, this is part of the reason I find Colin's narrow-bore low D so pleasant sounding and playing... I use a medium-hard blower whistle head, which should make the high notes fit into the 'stiff' - more 'resistance' / 'back pressure' description, but the upper register on this Goldie whistle is truly not stiff. It mimics the feel of higher range instruments. And the resistance is not great, at all. There is no stiffness in the tone, nor in the feedback to the player.
That's so fascinating!

Because as we know greater air consumption and more recalcitrant high notes both come from having a bore too big.

All things being equal, the narrower the bore the easier/sweeter the 2nd octave. This evidently allows the Goldie "medium-hard" head to give easy high notes, while on a wider-bore Low D that head would give rather stiff high notes.

I know for me, when I've been playing the "soft" Low D head for a while, the first thing I notice when I switch back to the "medium" head is the stiffer High B.

Though I do appreciate many qualities of the "soft" Goldie Low D, I always end up going back to the "medium".
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by Dougrout »

Any comments about the Carbony low D in terms of air requirements? And how do you like the sound and playability of the Carbony? I would still like to get a low D whistle as long as I can sustain a line of music.

Right now I’m considering Carbony, Goldie and perhaps a Kerry whistle? Any suggestions?
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by pancelticpiper »

Dougrout wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 8:51 am Any comments about the Carbony low D in terms of air requirements? And how do you like the sound and playability of the Carbony?
As I've stated on these boards several time, I've played a quite large number of Carbony instruments, their whistles in most (perhaps all) of their various sizes, their various flutes, their Highland pipes, their uilleann pipes, and their Spanish gaitas.

I have decades of experience playing all of these instruments at a pretty high level and experience with a number of top makers of each type, so I'm familiar with the range of quality that exists in each instrument genre. It's my opinion that none of the Carbony instruments were serious instruments. It's as if the usual process of instrument making (becoming proficient in a particular instrument, acquiring and playing a number of high quality instruments, studying and measuring them and coming to an understanding of precisely how professional quality instruments of that sort are expected to perform) has been dispensed with. If they could focus on one type of instrument and put in the hard work and years of R&D that's required, they might break out of their dilettantism.

Specifically about their Low Whistles, I wouldn't consider playing them, as they're nowhere near the playability of any of the alloy whistles by MK, Reyburn, Burke, Goldie, Overton, Reviol, etc.

The caveat to all of the above is that makers sometimes continue to overhaul and improve their products, and I've not played any Carbony things since before Covid. All of my playing of their things has been at numerous festivals, which got cancelled when Covid hit.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by Moof »

Dougrout wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 8:51 am Any comments about the Carbony low D in terms of air requirements? And how do you like the sound and playability of the Carbony? I would still like to get a low D whistle as long as I can sustain a line of music.
If you're not sure how well you'll manage a low whistle and want something that's extremely easy blowing, maybe try a Goldfinch? Easiest and lightest low whistle I've tried, well in tune, and as it doesn't come with anything like the price tag of carbon fibre, it's not such a dent in your wallet if you find you struggle.

Plastic whistles don't have the dynamic range of high end alloys, but it's still enjoyable to play something so smooth and easy when you're trying to get new tunes under your fingers. They also don't clog the way that alloys do when they get cold.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by Narzog »

Peoples definition of hard vs soft blower varies. To me, hard vs soft blower is based on how hard it is to overblow. Which is only useful when comparing whistles of similar air use. My MK vs Reyburn for example. The air use is actually quite similar. But you have to blow significantly harder to get the top of the second octave on the reyburn. But because it has a shorter windway height, that prevents it from using more air when blowing harder. To me the MK is much more comfortable to play but the Reyburn has a huge low end so it has its place. I dub the Reyburn a hard blower and the Mk a mid blower. My MK low C is a softblower, much more delicate.

If one whistle uses a ton of air things change. Because the more open the windway is, the more insane the air use gets when you have to blow harder. And then even if you dont have to blow that 'hard', if its a big open windway it still could use a lot more air than a more air efficient whistle that has to blow hard.

I think of whistle air use like straws in a drink. A jumbo straw you can instantly slurp down your entire drink in seconds. A tiny little straw you can suck as hard as you can and still not consume it that quickly.

I love my Mk low d. Excellent on air use, good volume, tuning, not too hard or soft overblowing. I had a Goldie for a while, was really cool sounding but I had clogging issues, and I slightly preferred how the Mk played. I have a Reburn low d, which is much harder to overblow than the MK so I'd only recommend it if that's what you want.

I played a kerry thunderbird low F. Was excellent on air use but does take a bit of push at the high end, which breaks really flat and takes even more push to be in tune. I wasn't a fan. Also I had bad clogging similar to the Goldie. I think I'd like the chieftain V5 much more, it should be more similar to the Mk. Some day I'll see one used for cheap and pick it up to try haha. Kerry Optima also seems nice. It has the flat sides like a Goldie which should fix the tuning thing I didn't like on the thunderbird and busker models. Also on my to try eventually list.

Also I would recommend not getting the burke F if that's still an option. Was my first low F and got sold because the air use was just nuts for a low f. I believe it still used more air than any low D I've played. I really wish Mike would make the windway less tall on the low whistles. My high A is fantastic.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by Moof »

Narzog wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:12 pm Peoples definition of hard vs soft blower varies.
Interesting. I'm asthmatic, so on a low whistle the main definition of hard vs soft is whether or not I can play the top B in a brisk tune.
  • On a plastic low D it's easy, and the tone doesn't even need much refining on a new whistle.
    On a Goldie soft-blow low D I can play it, but the tone still needs work (haven't had mine long).
    On an MK Pro low D it's basically a peak flow test. With notice I can get a good reading, but there are days when it's really not going to happen in the middle of a reel.
The soft-blow Goldie might be inefficient if you just measured the volume of air going through it over time, but the fact that it doesn't need that high air speed and pressure to reach the top notes means it's feasible for an asthmatic to play it in comfort. In the bottom octave, the air use doesn't feel very different to the MK Pro.

I also found the clogging issues go the opposite way around ... the MK clogs like crazy no matter how well warmed up, the Goldie only needs clearing between tune sets. It's possible this is related to the amount of effort a particular pair of lungs needs to make.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by pancelticpiper »

Moof wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:19 am on a low whistle the main definition of hard vs soft is whether or not I can play the top B in a brisk tune.
For sure the High B is the Achilles heel of Low D Whistles, because it usually takes the most volume of air, and sometimes has a noisy or harsh undertone if even slightly underblown. It's a bit like that Kaval thing where there's some of the low octave present in the tone unless it's blown just right.

About High B's in fast tunes, sometimes there's a bit of illusionism going on. I was playing (on Irish flute) some tune that had leaps going back and forth including High B's and a guy said "how are you making those High B's sweet like that?" When we played over that part we realised that I was actually playing those B's in the low octave, or sort of halfway between the octaves, and not true 2nd octave B's. However in the context of the fast reel and all the jumping around there was an illusion of these sweet little High B's popping out. It was just the byproduct of playing a passage with leaps on a fairly even breath and not doing breath gymnastics to yell out the high notes.
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Re: Hard blow versus soft blow

Post by Dougrout »

Such interesting and useful information. Thank you all for your contributions. I did get the Burke low F and I’m finding that it’s right at my limit. If I concentrate on breathing technique I can sustain a long enough line. I love thé sound so for me it’s worth the effort. I have a Susato low E on the way so it will be interesting to compare the breath requirements versus the Burke low F. My Susato mezzo A requires a real push at the top of the second octave - curious to know if the same is true of the low E.
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