7 hole whistles question

[Cyberknight]

I have a question about 7 hole whistles that have a bottom hole for the pinky so they can reach a low C# or C natural.

I really like chromatic whistles. I have a 10 hole chromatic Morneaux whistle with 4 extra holes that can play all 12 tones without any half-covering. I absolutely love that design, because it allows you to play using totally normal fingering without relearning how to play the whistle, as long as you are playing in a standard key with no accidentals; but the extra holes make accidentals super easy if you do need to use them.

Unfortunately, it seems that no one else makes whistles in the Morneaux design (not really sure why this is). But a LOT of companies seem to make these 7-hole whistles that have an extra pinky hole at the bottom.

What I'm wondering is this: on these 7-hole whistles, is it possible to use that extra hole at the bottom to access accidentals through cross-fingering that aren't normally available on a standard 6-hole instrument? For some reason I cannot find an answer to this, even after scouring the internet.

It seems that if you have another hole down there that lowers the pitch by a tone or semitone, there's a possibility it would also open up new ways of playing accidentals. Maybe you can cover the bottom hole and some of the other holes and play an in-tune G#? Or an F natural? Or (I know this is unlikely) a D#?

I'd really love to hear from someone who owns a 7-hole whistle about this.

[Tunborough]

I don't have a 7-hole whistle, but since no one else has commented, I'll offer what I can.

The extra hole will expand your choices for cross-fingering, but I don't expect it will expand the accidentals you can get in tune very much. Let's say XXX XXXX gives you C#. You get D with XXX XXXO, and E with XXX XXOO. XXX XXOX might give you something close to Eb, but I don't think so. F# is XXX XOOO and G is XXX OOOO. The seventh hole gives you three possibilities for Fnat: XXX XOOX, XXX XOXO, XXX XOXX; probably one of these will be in tune. As you go higher up the scale, though, the seventh hole is less and less likely to make a difference, except in a rare case where it lands near a pressure node.

[Cyberknight]

Thanks for your reply!

I did find an old post on this forum (after digging for quite some time) that indicated 7-hole whistles are "basically chromatic" given how many extra notes you can play with cross fingering. This would seem to suggest that more than an f natural would be possible on them. But as you say, it's difficult to imagine that you could get an in-tune E flat with an extra hole at the bottom.

[Jayhawk]

I find all whistles easy to half hole accurately. Maybe I am alone in this view, but I consider a standard 6 hole whistle fully chromatic.

Eric

[Cyberknight]

Certainly, the 6-hole whistle is chromatic in a certain sense. It's well suited for playing the occasional accidental. But unlike most chromatic instruments, it can only play reliably in certain keys. Try playing in E flat major on a six-hole D whistle, and it's almost impossible. Add a few holes, and it's quite doable.

[Steve Bliven]

One of the joys of whistles is that they are inexpensive. So, if'n you want to play in Eb major, you just buy a whistle in that key and fudge those few accidentals.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Mr.Gumby]

Try playing in E flat major on a six-hole D whistle, and it's almost impossible. Add a few holes, and it's quite doable.

And yet, people have been known to do it. I suppose few would practice other scales enough to become fluent, because there's no real need.

And fully keyed whistles and whistles responding well to a full range of cross fingerings have been made, snd still are. I usually say there is probably a reason why these have never taken off. There's beauty to be found in moving within certain limitations and there are other instruments available better suited to fully chromatic playing.

Why not meet the whistle on its own terms? I am always puzzled by people arriving here who take up the whistle and then set out to turn it into something it isn't.

[Moof]

There's beauty to be found in moving within certain limitations

And creativity. If you told a group of musicians in a workshop they can compose anything they want, some of them would really struggle to get going. Give them no more than four notes to use, and they'd immediately start working some beautifully ingenious stuff out.

[Cyberknight]

One of the joys of whistles is that they are inexpensive. So, if'n you want to play in Eb major, you just buy a whistle in that key and fudge those few accidentals.

Certainly, you can do that. But just because you CAN buy a cheap 6-hole whistle and fudge the accidentals doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T buy a whistle that can play in both D and E flat easily, without needing to half cover. Adding 1-3 holes to a whistle doesn't necessarily make it that much more expensive, and it adds a lot of flexibility to the instrument. So what's not to like?

And yet, people have been known to do it. I suppose few would practice other scales enough to become fluent, because there's no real need.

And fully keyed whistles and whistles responding well to a full range of cross fingerings have been made, snd still are. I usually say there is probably a reason why these have never taken off. There's beauty to be found in moving within certain limitations and there are other instruments available better suited to fully chromatic playing.

Why not meet the whistle on its own terms? I am always puzzled by people arriving here who take up the whistle and then set out to turn it into something it isn't.

I really haven't ever understood this line of reasoning. Yes, the whistle has a certain charm from its limitations. So if you want to play on a whistle with those limitations, then great. Do it. I do myself (I have many 6-hole whistles and I greatly enjoy playing them). But you act as though the charm of the 6-hole whistle is a reason NOT to want a chromatic one in ADDITION to having 6-hole varieties. What if I want both? Is there something wrong with wanting a slightly more flexible instrument, that can still imitate the charm and quirkiness of a 6-hole whistle if the player wants it to? Honestly, you might as well claim that keyed flutes are totally pointless and that no one should ever want or need anything other than a 6-hole Irish flute.

The reason that adding keys to a whistle hasn't taken off is likely because it's 1) very expensive, and 2) completely unnecessary, given that you can accomplish the same thing by adding extra holes.

Of course, whistles with extra holes haven't exactly "taken off" either (they're not hard to come by, but they aren't exactly popular). I would venture to guess this is because there seems to be a stigma and bias against them more than anything else. There's no logical reason why 6 holes would be superior to 7 or 8 holes. You can play the exact same way on a whistle with extra holes if you WANT to; you just have more options.

You've known people who play jigs or reels in E flat on a 6-hole D whistle? Geez, that's insane. I'd love to see someone do that.

And creativity. If you told a group of musicians in a workshop they can compose anything they want, some of them would really struggle to get going. Give them no more than four notes to use, and they'd immediately start working some beautifully ingenious stuff out.

Okay, then people should keep making the music according to those limitations. But that doesn't mean the instrument has to be so limited that it can ONLY play the music with those specific limitations. Listen, I love Irish music that's written in various modes of D or G major. It sounds amazing. I'm not going to stop playing it or composing it. But I would also like to branch out a bit and play some more modern stuff with key changes/chromatic melodies, etc. That's why I like my chromatic whistles.

[Nanohedron]

You've known people who play jigs or reels in E flat on a 60-hole D whistle? Geez, that's insane. I'd love to see someone do that.

I can't speak to specific whistles or keys, but more than once I have indeed witnessed people playing six-hole whistles so over-the-top chromatically, flawlessly, and at speed, that my jaw dropped. IIRC, one fellow showed me how he could play in Eb on a D whistle, and not badly, either. Oh, how I hated him.

What's insane is a 60-hole whistle.

[Cyberknight]

What's insane is a 60-hole whistle.

Edited!

I should add that, come to think of it, E flat isn't the HARDEST key to play on a D whistle. C sharp would be. Try finding someone who plays in C sharp on a D whistle.

[Nanohedron]

What's insane is a 60-hole whistle.

Edited!

I should add that, come to think of it, E flat isn't the HARDEST key to play on a D whistle. C sharp would be. Try finding someone who plays in C sharp on a D whistle.

The aforementioned dude was the sort who had to do it all. It was more of a party trick for him, though. If ever he played the C# register - I assume such was the case sooner or later - I don't recall how he did; I was too occupied with keeping myself from breaking his fingers.

[Moof]

plays in C sharp on a D whistle.

As someone who still has quite enough trouble playing in D major on a D whistle, I might pass on this one.

[Nanohedron]

plays in C sharp on a D whistle.

As someone who still has quite enough trouble playing in D major on a D whistle, I might pass on this one.

Wasn't my gig, either.

[Cyberknight]

Wasn't my gig, either.

I need to meet this guy lol