Teaching whistle instead of recorder-public school?

[phlute626]

Post for music ed folk- I’m interested in teaching whistle as an alternative to recorder (in the States). Has anyone done that or know anyone who has?
And, is whistle currently taught in Irish primary school?

Thanks!

[Mr.Gumby]

And, is whistle currently taught in Irish primary school?

Tin whistle is one of the instruments on the National school curriculum ..

In reality it depends very much on the school/individual teacher at what level, if at all, this works out. While some teachers can light the spark, I have heard a few groups struggle out of tune through 'twinkle, twinkle..' and heard more than a few saying they were put off the whistle forever by their school's music teaching.

The most successful perhaps are motivated teachers and schools, gaelscoileanna often, putting on extra curricular, after hours, groups for students who actually want to be there. Having a background/area with a musical culture/community is important also, obviously.

[Moof]

One of the appeals of teaching tin whistle might be that there's an easily accessible body of music for young people to play.

I hated learning the recorder at school because it wasn't played by proper musicians, and there wasn't any good music for it. Neither are remotely true, of course, but that's how it looked to us. Recorder = only played by under-11s, nowhere to go with it, no point putting in any effort.

Not all kids will like ITM of course, but it's arguably more accessible to youngsters than some types of recorder music. As Mr Gumby says, though, everything depends on the teacher. If they know and like the music, it's easy to give kids something to aim for—there are tunes with structures and sequences as easy to learn as Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star that you can hear being played by world-class musicians. I never heard any of the stuff we were taught played jaw-droppingly well on a record.

It's nice to hear that tin whistle is at least on the national curriculum, though! When I was at school in Britain, it wasn't an instrument—you might as well have turned up with two stones to knock together. Pupils who had their own instruments were offered free after-school music tuition, so the posh girl in our class who played oboe really badly (and hated it) got lessons all through secondary school, but I got a point blank refusal because my parents could only afford to buy me a toy. Hopefully, attitudes are a lot less snobbish now.

[msupples]

I've often remarked on this myself. A whistle is just as affordable and probably easier to play than a recorder, so why not?

I've got a whistle in my 2 year old's hands already. Although he can only play a very ear piercing second octave c#, he likes to toot along with dad. I have a high g whistle to teach him on once he's able and ready.

[macuaig]

I have a “why not?” to offer. At this stage it’s not about making good musicians, but about exposing the kids to musical concepts. Two things about whistles that aren’t true in most other instruments are the lack of chromatic relationships, and higher notes need to be louder. So what’s the intention, get kids playing now, or starting on more universal concepts?

[phlute626]

Thank you for your ideas- you all bring up good points and some things I hadn’t thought of before. Mr. Gumby, thank you for the curriculum link! There are many commonalities in US snd Irish curricula. I’m a public school music teacher of 31 years and trad player for about 12 and would like to find a way to put them together before I retire.

[Mr.Gumby]

I think you will have to be clear about what you want to achieve. Where I live traditional music is strong, one of my neighbours is one of the finest whistle teachers in the country. She has hundreds of children coming to her classes every week. People know about music, even if not everybody is into it. It's alive and present, part of the social fabric. It's relatable. If you lack that ecosystem, learning the whistle will be as alien as learning the recorder. So that's one hurdle to overcome.


Here's an old snap (and very poor 16 year old scan) of a school-do when my son was in National school. Some pupils brought their instruments and just played the tunes they learned when not in school (the music/whistle tuition the school provided was atrocious):

[Moof]

For me, one of the big problems with teaching recorder is the lack of modelling. Kids don't see recorder players on stages or TV, they don't hear recorder music on tracks they like, and teachers often don't play it well (or at all) themselves. Why would they want to learn it?

A lot comes down to the teacher, and what they are enthusiastic and knowledgeable about. If they're a percussionist or a singer or a guitar player, they should probably teach that. But although primary school teachers may have enough knowledge and grounding to teach music, they aren't all keen practising musicians themselves. They need to show models of what skilled players, who look like or came from the same background as their pupils, have achieved. That's a tough ask with the recorder.

It sounds as if I hate it, and I don't. I've been to wonderful music recitals featuring recorder players, but I wouldn't have enjoyed them when I was eight and that probably goes for quite a lot of kids. I suppose you could argue tin whistle is also a bit niche, but the range of music in which it's played (trad, pop, film and TV scores) and the number of recordings available means it's a lot less so.

[Steve Bliven]

Thank you for your ideas- you all bring up good points and some things I hadn’t thought of before. Mr. Gumby, thank you for the curriculum link! There are many commonalities in US snd Irish curricula. I’m a public school music teacher of 31 years and trad player for about 12 and would like to find a way to put them together before I retire.

I periodically go into the following rant regarding music education in the schools: I grew up in the period when we were taught either flutophone or recorder in early elementary classes. As we got older we were pushed toward "band instruments" (e.g saxophone, trombone, trumpet, drums, etc., partly because that's what the teacher knew and partly so that we could dress up in uncomfortable costumes and march at school sporting events in order to support the program teaching us these instruments. Meanwhile, in the wild, we were listening to "that rock and roll stuff" — and later to that "folk music stuff" — which was mostly guitar based with a smattering of bass, drums, banjo, etc. There was nothing of this in the schools. Consequently, whatever musical skills we learned in school, were, for almost all, considered dead upon graduation. True, there were some who continued on and played piano and accordion at weddings and some even became "real musicians" (meaning they got paid). For the rest of us, we had to pick up further musical instructions "in the streets". I still don't see much emphasis on school music instruction that leads to recreational playing (like most of us do) in either repertoire or instruments. How many of us met our partners while playing the trombone as opposed to knowing the chords to Creedence Clearwater or Mississippi John Hurt? End of rant.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Terry McGee]

Any other local Irish musicians available, phlute626? It could be interesting to have them sit in a corner of the playground a couple of times and play. (Probably wise to seek permission first!) If you could first establish it as a fun thing to do before springing it onto the unsuspecting you might get a head start. Would be specially effective if there was a sprinkling of younger players among the nonagenarians!

[trill]

. . . Would be specially effective if there was a sprinkling of younger players among the nonagenarians!

Sneaky+smart !

[RoberTunes]

I have great memories of being in a Grade 5 recorder group at school. There were 8 of us and we all enjoyed the experience. We practiced about 6 different tunes of various styles, tempos and difficulty. The main focus was in putting in legitimate practice so we sounded good and found the fun of it. The teacher was very good at getting us through any difficulties with learning fingerings and techniques to master the instrument and the tunes. A group solidarity formed pretty quickly. Eventually we entered a town-wide school music contest and actually won. On the way out, one of the judges said that we won because as the smallest group there was only 8 of us so we made fewer mistakes, which made us laugh.

Having played both instruments, I think that even for kids age 8 or older, I'm glad we didn't have the 6-hole whistles, as that would have not been nearly as interesting to me, for the shrill tone and the lack of chromatic range. At that age you're dealing with kids, who no matter how much they like playing music, will have other priorities and likely many of them illustrate what happens with inconsistent practice efforts. For myself, I can't imagine at that age how a whistle could hold my attention for months at a time, in a group, with nothing else going on. Recorders allow playing a full range of tunes with little concern for keys involved, outside of a range of the easiest 5 or so, which would naturally be selected for that concern with starter musicians. I remember that with 8 players, we still divided up the music and had musical sections or parts going on, within one tune. None of it was typical Irish trad music, more like popular and show tunes adapted to clear and simple recorder charts.

If whistles were selected, another problem is small hands, so you'd be stuck with high D and C. If the group learning was adults, then you've got a chance to include the whistles in keys of alto A, G, F and low D for other effects and playing roles. That might work.

The natural option to consider would be bulk purchases of chromatic whistles, such as by (not currently in production) Bracker whistles or perhaps another maker could supply chromatic whistles in bulk school orders of 10 to 50 at a time.

However, with the established very high quality of current plastic recorders by such makers as Yamaha, which have very low cost even in sopranino and alto ranges, with excellent tone and playability without fail, I can't see whistles surviving the comparison for the purpose, practicality and take-up enthusiasm from the kids, which is critical. Any kids in elementary, junior or highschool who are also actively learning music such as on piano, guitar, drums, saxophones, clarinets, bass, or vocals, would naturally spring for the chromatic options. Such a person would look at whistles and 6 holes and if they preferred the whistle's tone, but didn't want to be restricted by 6 tone holes, would seem to be out of luck, and then spring for the recorder. Some people may not want the whistle's tone, for it being too dominant. The recorder's ability to blend with other instruments, is as they say, groooooooooovy!

More support for chromatic whistles! Since that won't happen, buy recorders!

[Mr.Gumby]

More support for chromatic whistles! Since that won't happen

Historically speaking chromatic whistles, keyed or using forked fingerings, are not without precedent. One will have to assume there was not enough interest in them to sustain them. Horses for courses.

[Flywhistler]

I'm a retired elementary music teacher and I taught whistle to my elementary students. The late Bill Ochs was a great proponent of teaching the whistle in schools and even had a website dedicated to that purpose. It still exists here: https://pennywhistlesforschools.com/ He was very supportive of my endeavors. My group of students participated in our local summer parade. I would encourage you to teach whistle to your students. One of the best things we can do for our music students, or any students, is to share our passions with them.

[Tunborough]

Following in the footsteps of her dad, J. Chalmers Doane, Melanie Doane is teaching music through the ukulele. https://www.uschool.ca/

Ukuleles are chromatic, not as piercing as whistles can be, and maybe a bit closer to cool than recorders. And you can sing along.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8GzLHgdz4ag
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rsmnykNk-4I