Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

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Sirchronique
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Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Sirchronique »

Hello, how are you today?

I was hoping to find some resources for learning to make whistles In the old way, out of sheets of metal that are rolled into a conical shape. I’ve recently been making whistles with plastic heads and brass bodies, and I’m becoming satisfied with the results, but I’d really love to learn how to make whistles in the manner I am inquiring about.

Of course, despite once being the standard, such whistles have fallen out of fashion and all we are left with of that type are Clarke Originals, Shaws, and those (quite awful) “Williamsburg” things that are sold to tourists.

However, those are not the exact type of thing I’m interested in making. For the past decade or so I have been acquiring a type of old whistle here and there that is sold under various brand markings, such as Calura, Eagle, Schoha, and perhaps others. I have acquired around 16 of these in keys ranging from high E down to B natural. Despite the different names, and different stamps of region of manufacture (I’ve seen them marked Germany, USA, and Japan, with everything else appearing identical), I have the impression that these were all perhaps produced in the same factory and just stamped with the marks of other companies. Anyway, I like these whistles, very much indeed.

Being around a century old, of delicate construction, and with a wooden fipple block, of course many of them are damaged or didn’t hold up well to the passage of time. However, I’ve gotten so many that are just wonderful. Super sweet upper octave, very responsive and articulate, nice tone and volume balance across the range, and are just overall very pleasing to me. I am surprised that these didn’t persist into the modern day, but the airy and somewhat “inefficient”(imo) Clarkes, which these do not resemble in playing or tonal characteristics, did. These also have a surprisingly narrow bore, with the B natural being narrower than the width of a typical pencil at the far end of the tube. You’d think they’d be super weak and touchy in the low end, but in my opinion they play nicely and without the issues you’d expect from a bore that appears way too narrow.

So, to get down to my intention- What I would love to do is to be able to copy these whistles as closely as possible based on the historical ones I have on hand. If I could produce something reasonably close, I’d like to experiment with a couple of tiny modern improvements, such as a delrin fipple block and a bit of an adjustment of the tuning system, or perhaps producing something similar in other keys.

I want to get some sort of idea about how realistic this is, however I am very uninformed regarding this manner of whistle construction. My entire understanding of this comes from a short segment I saw inside the Clarke factory, where they were putting the cut sheets of metal between two rollers and passing it through in order to roll them into their eventual whistley shape. I am hoping to piece together what kind of process I could use to make whistles of that sort of construction style, and make a detailed step-by-step plan of the process, along with figuring out what kind of tooling I would need to accomplish this on a smaller scale. Would it be possible to make the body design around some sort of mould that is based on the dimensions of what I’m wanting to copy? I haven’t worked with this type of material, design, or construction method before. Please help me fill myself in on what I need to know, or where I can learn it.

I see so many modern whistle makers releasing carbon copies of each other’s instruments, and I keep waiting for someone else to do that with these very cool old whistles. I’m really surprised that no one has, as they are nice and the design and dimensions aren’t really like any sort of whistle I’ve seen since. It seems no one is wanting to do it, so I guess if I want it to be done I will have to do it myself. Is there any information that may be of use to me in learning how to do this? I need to know what I must learn in order to do this, and what I need to have on hand in order to make myself a system for doing it.

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SirC
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by GreenWood »

It would depend if you want to make just one or a few, or very many. I am not experienced at sheet metal work, but know the same object can be made with minimal tooling and cold forming, right through to hands off mass produced.


"The seam on the back is a locking seam, different from a clarke. It appears to have been finished with a grooving machine of some sort that was designed specifically for this purpose. The seam was definitely set down with a wheel though."

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103928&p=1184014&hi ... a#p1184014

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/c ... wance_for/

Which is probably more difficult. Here is how I would start trying to make a few of those. Hopefully someone more experienced will chip in.

To roll the sheet close to shape easily, right version of

https://www.google.pt/search?q=sheet+metal+roller

or can be made diy.

I would then prepare an "outside shape" of the conical bore with a lengthwise gap, and push the rolled sheet into that with an overlap at the lengthwise gap. Then cut through the overlap and push the rolled sheet in a tad further until the new cut edges met again . Then braze it (small butane torch, lower temp filling, brazing not solder ) .

For the shape of the head I have no idea if cold pressed, brazed on or what. I imagine it was pressed somehow, someone who makes similar, or who knows how to read metal work, would tell you. There would be various ways to make that also, usually it is a trade off between more time and difficulty with an artisan method, vs the even greater time and difficulty of making tooling but that then allows many to be made easily.
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Terry McGee
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Terry McGee »

Hi Sirchronique

From memory (I don't seem to have one around here any more!), the Clarke's had a formed seam, very uncomfortable for the thumbs! Do your old whistles employ the same approach or can you describe how they are formed?

You might find this of some relevance:

https://www.jewelry-tutorials.com/make- ... ow-to.html

I've used the same general approach to make flute tuning slides, but of course they are cylindrical. Still, the methodology might give you some ideas.

Looking forward to hearing more as you dig deeper!
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Terry McGee »

Ah, and while on the subject of Clarke's, I think I only ever bought one, way back in the late sixties, and was immediately appalled by how much air it wasted. I remember devising a way to lower and square the roof of the mouthpiece, and flatten out the crumpled mess of the "edge" into a reasonable approximation of a flat ramp. But it still had the no-tuning problem, so it got put away and forgotten. It shouldn't be impossible to come up with a tuning arrangement if you can solve the other challenges!
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Ofcourse the Shaw whistles are around, using that pattern.

Clarke likes to have you believe they were the only whistle around, they clearly weren't. But that's a whole other discussion.

If you want to go that way, first thing would be to move away from Clarke's shaping of the windway and blade. It may cut a few corners in production, it surely makes for highly inefficient use of air.

It can, and has been, done :

Image

Which is a playable reasonably efficient whistle. But still, does it make a whistle I would want to play regularly? Well, as far as I am concerned, no, not really
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Tommy »

Sirchronique wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:01 pm Hello, how are you today?

I was hoping to find some resources for learning to make whistles In the old way, out of sheets of metal that are rolled into a conical shape.

So, to get down to my intention- What I would love to do is to be able to copy these whistles as closely as possible based on the historical ones I have on hand. If I could produce something reasonably close, I’d like to experiment with a couple of tiny modern improvements, such as a delrin fipple block and a bit of an adjustment of the tuning system, or perhaps producing something similar in other keys.

Would it be possible to make the body design around some sort of mould that is based on the dimensions of what I’m wanting to copy? I haven’t worked with this type of material, design, or construction method before. Please help me fill myself in on what I need to know, or where I can learn it.


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SirC
viewtopic.php?p=905874#p905874

Back in the day when junior high schools still had metal and wood shops I learned to shape sheet metal on a slender tapered anvil to make the lower end of a funnel. I now make a tapered mandrel to shape copper around into a conical whistle. Click on the link for picture of the results. The head is made of PVC pipe with a delrin plug.
''Whistles of Wood'', cpvc and brass. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69086
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Tommy »

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234812826585?h ... R7b-ltGfYQ

This anvil looks similar to the one I used to make sheet metal into a tapered tube for a funnel.

The mandrel I use now is much smaller and is long enough to put into a lathe to smooth the copper conical.
''Whistles of Wood'', cpvc and brass. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69086
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Terry McGee »

Interesting, Tommy. So, see if I understand your approach correctly....

You'd start out with sheet copper and cut a strip to a slightly trapezoidal shape, where the short side is the diameter of the bottom of the whistle, the long side is the diameter of the top, and the distance between them is the length of the whistle. Then anneal it, or is it soft enough to start with? Then wrap it around your mandrel, perhaps hammering with a soft-faced hammer and a lead block to bring the sides together? And just together, not overlapped or seamed? Flux and solder (soft or hard solder?)? Chuck the mandrel in the lathe, and use metal spinning tools and techniques to iron out any bumps in the cone? Clean up and tap the mandrel out?

Or have I completely misinterpreted your approach?

Ah, and what's the purpose of the band of metal at the foot end? Bell note tuning adjustment? Strengthening the thin body metal? Just visual?
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Tommy »

Terry McGee wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:56 pm Interesting, Tommy. So, see if I understand your approach correctly....

Tommy starts with a 5/8'' copper pipe, and remove a wedge on one side leaving the bottom end open and the top end round. where the short side is the diameter of the bottom of the whistle, the long side is the diameter of the top, and the distance between them is the length of the whistle. It is soft enough to start with. Then wrap it around your mandrel, perhaps hammering with a soft-faced hammer and a lead block to bring the sides together? And just together, not overlapped or seamed? Where the wedge opening comes together is sealed with a two part epoxy and a ferrule is added to bottom end. Chuck the mandrel in the lathe, and use metal cutting tools and techniques to iron out any bumps in the cone? Machine the top round end to size to receive the PVC Fipple. Clean up and tap the mandrel out?

Or have I completely misinterpreted your approach?
You came very close Terry. :thumbsup: I did use a wood mandrel the first time, and a person could also do that. Then without a machine lathe file the soft copper to smooth shape. Yes they would need a wood lathe to make a tapered wood mandrel, or with some carving skill make a taper on a wood dowel.
Yes the bottom ferrule is for strength and a bit of flare.
''Whistles of Wood'', cpvc and brass. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69086
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Terry McGee »

Tommy wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:29 pm You came very close Terry. :thumbsup:
Whew. Over 50 years flute making, but I feel a bit of a newb around here! Still, that's fun too.
I did use a wood mandrel the first time, and a person could also do that. Then without a machine lathe file the soft copper to smooth shape. Yes they would need a wood lathe to make a tapered wood mandrel, or with some carving skill make a taper on a wood dowel.
I have seen people use a drill press - even a crude one based on a pistol drill - as a make-do wood lathe for "simple" jobs like this. Piece of scrap wood clamped to the drill table with a nail sticking up as the tailcentre. Really coarse rasp to rough out taper (against the direction that the drill is spinning). Finer files and then sanding when getting close. Finish with fine steel wool if fussy!

I think the moral with musical instrument making over the ages is never say "impossible". I particularly love seeing the old marimbas in the museums made from found objects in Africa. These people knew what was important!
Yes the bottom ferrule is for strength and a bit of flare.
Ah, not visual flair, but acoustic flare. I should have thought of that - a flare at the end of a flute bore is a standard feature to help realign the bell note with its octave. Not something I've seen on tapered metal whistles before.
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Tommy »

Im sorry Terry I did mean visual flare or bling, ornamental. The primary purpose of the ferrule is to prevent the bottom end from breaking open.
It is not acoustic flare.
''Whistles of Wood'', cpvc and brass. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69086
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Terry McGee »

Ah, OK. So strength and appearance. We flutemakers put a ring on the end of our flutes for the same reason. And the ends of several of my whistles would have preferred to be thicker!
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Terry McGee »

Just remembering another approach to tapering thin metal tubes I wonder if anyone has tried. You need a steel mandrel. Put your length of annealed thin-walled metal tubing over the mandrel and flatten the leading edge of the tubing to prevent the mandrel coming through. Now hammer the mandrel and tubing through a too-small hole in something that will grudgingly give. EG a lump of lead, some wood, a thin steel washer, maybe a thick lump of Delrin?

Depending on the amount of taper, it might need several passes, and might even need annealing again during the process. I imagine if it went well, it could give an elegant result.

Getting it off the mandrel might be an issue!
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

A friend makes pipes and rolls tubes, ferrules etc. He described the methodology here.

May be of help.
Last edited by Mr.Gumby on Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

Post by Tommy »

Sirchronique wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:01 pm Hello, how are you today?

I was hoping to find some resources for learning to make whistles In the old way, out of sheets of metal that are rolled into a conical shape. I’ve recently been making whistles with plastic heads and brass bodies, and I’m becoming satisfied with the results, but I’d really love to learn how to make whistles in the manner I am inquiring about.

I need to know what I must learn in order to do this, and what I need to have on hand in order to make myself a system for doing it.

🍕
SirC
I would consider making a simple lap joint with a two part epoxy first? After you are satisfied with your conical tubes make different joins?
''Whistles of Wood'', cpvc and brass. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69086
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