Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
david_h
Posts: 1735
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:04 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Mercia

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by david_h »

Terry McGee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:21 am Interesting to compare the coefficients of thermal conductivity for various materials.
I was thinking of this as I warmed the teapot for my morning brew. If it's the temperature of the material that matters I think Heat Capacity comes into it as well, although the range is not as great.

It's interesting that fine and much admired wind instruments, including whistles and Boehm flutes, are made from materials at both ends of the conductivity range.

I'm sure there are discussions here about the 'quick suck' technique. I think some people said they did it as habitually as they breathed.
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Moof wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:35 am I keep thinking about the fact that my swimming goggles are all-plastic, and despite the low conductivity, if I put them on my warm face and stick it into cold water they mist up so much I can't see anything. But if I apply antifog coating, there's no [visible] misting at all. It completely changes the way the water interacts with the surface.
Yeah, good question. In the swimming pool and googles situation, the goggles may be plastic and have low conductivity, but they are thin. The swimming pool is enormous and has a vast supply of cold.

And the antifog stuff doesn't prevent condensation, it prevents the formation of droplets. It's a "surfactant" or "wetting agent". Which brings us to another topic - surfaces, surface finishes, and surface treatments. But let's hold off on those until we see if anyone is able to shoot down my basic hypothesis - that an all aluminium windway is a recipe for condensation.
My plastic whistle mouthpiece isn't very different to the metal one when it comes to clogging. It's a bit better, but then again it does takes much less effort to blow the Howard than it does the MK. And then there's the mouth contact; I play with the plastic mouthpiece only just inside my lips and something of an embouchure, but if I don't stick the MK right in like a lollipop I can't get enough air into it. I'd imagine that effort and mouth position must have something of an influence, as well as the material and surface characteristics.
As I mentioned above, I think there are going to be issues other than conductivity. Narrow windways probably clog faster than fat windways. Some surface finishes faster than other surface finishes. Etc. But let's take this an issue at a time....
More generally, the difference between wet and dry playing might come down to individual factors like breath technique, dentition, and playing posture. I tire quickly, and my head tends to droop a bit as the energy fades—it's possible that my whistles block more when I'm fatigued partly due to gravity. If my head tilts downwards more, moisture is more likely to run into the mouthpiece.
Heh heh, I was thinking along these lines as I mused on the topic after lunch. Settling back in my recliner, playing a few tunes, noting the whistle was horizontal....
PS: to go back to the swimming goggles ... in the dark old days before every sports shop sold spray-on antifog in convenient little bottles, everyone used saliva! :lol:
Now you've already teased us with possible use of bra band whistle warming technologies. I'm not sure we're quite ready for the transfer of bodily fluids....
Moof
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:26 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My motto: If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing badly. (Fortunately, as otherwise I'd never be allowed near a musical instrument.)

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

RoberTunes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:53 pm So this is a great topic for whistle shoppers.
I did wonder whether there was a thread on whistle shopping, especially for beginners, but the search facility doesn't work on my Mac.

I'm lucky enough to know someone whose brother runs an instrument shop, and benefitted hugely from his willingness to offer advice and let me try several whistles at home (many small businesses aren't very wheelchair accessible—other people have different access issues, such as there being no specialist store for miles). I wonder how people manage when they have to buy online, as I'm sure I'd have picked the wrong starter whistle if I'd done that.
bruce.b
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:23 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I’m a whistle, fiddle and tenor guitar player. Mostly low D, mostly Irish trad, but I’ll try any fiddle tune on whistle.

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by bruce.b »

I also wonder about surface treatments. The MK’s don’t clog as much as several other makes of whistles I’ve owned. Could it be that the anodized surface helps with the clogging issue? I’ve also noticed, as someone else stated, that my whistles clog less after i’ve been playing them regularly for a few months, maybe even after just a couple of weeks. Some people have said that as they become more experienced, (months?, years?) they clog all whistles less. Do they slightly alter their technique, perhaps unconsciously? What could they be changing?
bruce.b
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:23 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I’m a whistle, fiddle and tenor guitar player. Mostly low D, mostly Irish trad, but I’ll try any fiddle tune on whistle.

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by bruce.b »

I too used to spit in my goggles before swimming. It seemed to really help. Most of the water in the windway is condensation, not spit. Could it be that the clogging issue improves after months of playing due to a tiny bit of spit getting in there and slowly coating the windway and bevel? Should we all be hacking a big goober into the windway of new whistles, smooshing it around with a piece of card, and letting it dry before we play?
User avatar
David Cooper
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:24 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm about to have a go at making wooden flutes based on a quena - I want to experiment with changing the hole sizes and locations to make one that's more comfortable to play. I just received an auger through the post today, and there are blown-down trees in the garden waiting to be repurposed, so I'll try to make a start on my first prototype at the weekend.

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by David Cooper »

Two things certainly should not be combined: the quick suck method and the goggle anti-fogging stuff. Here's why:-

"Researchers at Duke University have discovered that these anti-fogging sprays and cloths may contain potentially harmful chemicals. Some types of per- and polyfluorinated alkyl substances (PFAS) have been tied to impaired immune function, cancer, thyroid disease and more."

I wouldn't advise putting the stuff in a wind instrument at all.

I wonder if it might help to drill lots of tiny holes through the fipple to allow capillary action to draw the moisture away from the windway. The lower pressure in the windway might draw air in through such holes to prevent that working in quite that way, but if air comes in instead it could still make the droplets more mobile and encourage them to be blown along through the windway and out the far end.
User avatar
RoberTunes
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:33 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I am a flute, guitar, keyboard + whistle player learning about quality whistles, musical possibilities and playing techniques. I've recorded a CD of my own music and am creating music for kids.
Location: North America

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by RoberTunes »

That organized list of whistle materials and their relationship to clogging is a great help!!!

Looks like two main options are successfully used to prevent excess clogging:
1) surface treatment, various methods
2) including a non-metal material for the windway.

Alba seems to have the second method in good use; synthetic albanite used as the windway plug forms about 50% of the surface area in the windway, thereby radically
dropping the condensation production characteristics, vs what 100% aluminum contributes. The Kerry Busker is described by Phil Hardy as an improvement over the
previous Thunderbird design, for clogging issues, by shortening and adjustments in windway design, yet still all aluminum. So some specs in the mouthpiece area
are considerations too. You can see that in one of the videos on his website. Setanta offers synthetic as part of the windway, or full brass, and if you ask me, the better
tone comes from part or full plastic on those whistles, and they probably have less clogging.

As for construction materials, I'm still amazed that more whistle tube bodies aren't made using stainless steel, considering how durable it is. The cost of the instrument would not
be as low as the mass produced brass/plastic market bottom contraptions, but the ability to produce a very durable and precision instrument would be high. Perhaps weight
would be an issue for lower keys (same thing with brass vs aluminum going on), but for alto A and higher, surely stainless steel would produce a great whistle. Wall thickness
could be adjusted by the manufacturer, as it is with brass and aluminum.
Sports referees take note.
User avatar
stringbed
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:36 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing woodwind instruments for over 70 years and deeply interested in their history, manufacture, technology, and performance practices.
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by stringbed »

Condensation in the windway is also very much a concern with instruments made entirely of wood. This is evidenced by the windcaps on flageolets and discussions just like the present one among recorder players. To their slim good fortune, wood absorbs surfactants as metal and plastic cannot, and applying them to the windway has a more than brief transient effect. The caveat about proprietary preparations is serious but the two most common active ingredients, polyethylene glycol (PEG) and sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS), have pharmaceutical uses and their low toxicity has been substantiated in numerous studies. SLS is a common ingredient in toothpaste and is likely what provides the pivotal effect in the "toothpaste fix."

PEG is available in a range of molecular weights with varying properties. Recorder makers have been supplying 10% aqueous solutions of PEG 400 for as long as I can remember. It is commonly applied by filling the windway with it for a few seconds and then blowing it clear. I haven't noticed this to have much of an effect on whistles with aluminum windways. However, putting a few drops on a slip of heavy paper and sliding it back and forth a few times in the windway does a more useful job of it, likely because it also has an active cleansing effect. This correlates to the toothpaste fix without any extraneous particulate matter, but also without whatever it is in the toothpaste that may slow the clearance of the surfactant.
Moof
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:26 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My motto: If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing badly. (Fortunately, as otherwise I'd never be allowed near a musical instrument.)

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

David Cooper wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:23 am Two things certainly should not be combined: the quick suck method and the goggle anti-fogging stuff.
Totally, that's why I didn't recommend it. It's a shame because it works well, at least on plastic, but even after it's thoroughly rinsed it off you don't know what's still lingering the first few times you play.

I did a little more mouthpiece investigation just now, on the relative sizes of the windway opening on the plastic Howard and the aluminium MK. For this I used the highly accurate, scientifically validated how-far-in-can-you-get-a-cocktail-stick method. The results were as it appears to the eye—the Howard is narrower.

I was prompted to do it by having to abandon all attempts to play the MK this afternoon, as I could hardly get through the first eight of a simple march tune without having to stop and unclog. I had prewarmed it, but it was a bit chilly in there at 14.5C/58F. Just as I was getting to like its scuzzy tone, too! I haven't applied anything to it; it's not mine and the toothpaste I've got, like most, is abrasive. Though I suppose I could get a tube of that stuff designed for dentures, and ask my mate if I can give it a go.
bruce.b wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:46 am I too used to spit in my goggles before swimming. It seemed to really help. Most of the water in the windway is condensation, not spit. Could it be that the clogging issue improves after months of playing due to a tiny bit of spit getting in there and slowly coating the windway and bevel? Should we all be hacking a big goober into the windway of new whistles, smooshing it around with a piece of card, and letting it dry before we play?
It's an interesting thought. Sounds like some science is needed! Who's got two with the same heads, that need roughly the same air?
bruce.b
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:23 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I’m a whistle, fiddle and tenor guitar player. Mostly low D, mostly Irish trad, but I’ll try any fiddle tune on whistle.

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by bruce.b »

I was also thinking about recorders and clogging. Wood recorders clog, and the suck method seems universal with recorder players. Plastic recorders clog much more quickly than wood. I don’t believe plastic is the answer. I’d love to try a good wooden low whistle, both for their tone and to see how resistant to clogging it is.

As far as durability, that is one reason why I like anodized Al. It’s harder than bare AL, prevents corrosion and is a barrier between you and the Al . It also looks great, IMO. I’m surprised it’s not more commonly done. It must add to the cost of manufacturing whistles.
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

bruce.b wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:06 pm I was also thinking about recorders and clogging. Wood recorders clog, and the suck method seems universal with recorder players. Plastic recorders clog much more quickly than wood. I don’t believe plastic is the answer.
Now, we'd need to be careful there. Are we fairly comparing like and like? For example, if the wood recorder has a big rectangular windway, but the plastic recorder has a much thinner curved windway, any tendency to clog might be because of the physical aspects rather than the materials.
As far as durability, that is one reason why I like anodized Al. It’s harder than bare AL, prevents corrosion and is a barrier between you and the Al . It also looks great, IMO. I’m surprised it’s not more commonly done. It must add to the cost of manufacturing whistles.
It's a bit of a leap, aesthetics wise, from what we have been used to. I think how it works is going to be more important than how it looks. I wouldn't expect the thin layer of oxide and the dyes used to significantly alter the thermal absorption qualities. That would remain my worry. But let's see!
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Moof wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:31 pm I did a little more mouthpiece investigation just now, on the relative sizes of the windway opening on the plastic Howard and the aluminium MK. For this I used the highly accurate, scientifically validated how-far-in-can-you-get-a-cocktail-stick method. The results were as it appears to the eye—the Howard is narrower.
You've put your finger on a Long-Felt-Want, Moof, an easy method of gauging windway heights and tapers. It would much improve the quality of discussions like these if we had some real numbers available to us. The usual Vernier Calipers will work at the blowing end, but are useless thereafter, and of course all the interesting stuff happens thereafter. So let's put a few minutes thought into how at least some of us could equip ourselves to be able to contribute some facts.

My first thought is based on twist drills, available in specialist outlets in increments of 0.1mm. You don't use the pointy end, but the tail. Pick one that almost goes through into the window. Insert it backwards into the windway until it stops. Now measure what's protruding with the calipers, or even a rule. Withdraw it and measure the full length. The difference gives us the location of that thickness.

That, plus caliper measurements of the width of the windway at the blowing end should be enough to calculate any taper and therefore compute the width at the inaccessible window end. (We would also need to know the window length, but that's not hard to measure.) Or you could pick another drill, one that only just enters the windway, and get a location for that thickness. Again some sneaky maths would yield the thickness at the window.

If we want to be really picky, we should measure the diameter of the tails of the drills. Drills tend to cut a little oversize, so you'll probably find your 2mm drill is more like 1.9mm in diameter.

Just tried a 1.16mm drill in my Killarney D whistle - it stops 6.8mm in. By comparison, an old Dolmetsch Treble recorder starts at 3.5mm but tapers down to just over 1mm at the window! The Dyson of fipple instruments....

So that's one suggestion on how we could move from guesswork to knowledge. Any better ideas anybody? It's got to be able to work with curved and flat windways, so I don't think feeler gauges are going to cut it. But keep thinking.
User avatar
stringbed
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:36 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing woodwind instruments for over 70 years and deeply interested in their history, manufacture, technology, and performance practices.
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by stringbed »

Terry McGee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:33 pm …an easy method of gauging windway heights and tapers. It would much improve the quality of discussions like these if we had some real numbers available to us. The usual Vernier Calipers will work at the blowing end, but are useless thereafter, and of course all the interesting stuff happens thereafter.

It's got to be able to work with curved and flat windways, so I don't think feeler gauges are going to cut it.
When I was working for Moeck, the voicer's toolkit for the Rottenburgh model included a feeler gauge for setting the height of the windway. It was a few centimeters longer than the windway, which tapered along its length. The gauge was about five mm wide at the end held in the hand and narrowed to about three mm at the end that projected into the window. The side placed against the block was flat and the opposite side arched radially. The distance between those two faces matched the windway along its midline according to measurements provided by the model's designer, Friedrich von Huene.

The acceptable tolerance was determined by a reference mark scored across the top of the gauge. That mark needed to be fully visible in the window, with the other end of the go/no-go range set by the end of the gauge coming into contact with the edge. Friedrich placed no great stock in absolute measurements in the voicing process and showed me (and presumably the other voicers) how to adjust the gauge according to individual preference.

I know that other makers were using similar gauges at the time and assume that the practice hasn’t gone out of fashion. There shouldn’t be any reason why they couldn't be adapted to measuring whistle windways. However, I would be surprised if it turns out that there is a clear correlation between windway height and propensity for clogging independent of other measurable factors — including additional physical dimensions and material properties.
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Which I guess raises a question which we should perhaps have discussed earlier - what is the physical manifestation of clogging?

Is it so much condensation that enough droplets form that they start to reduce the air flow through the windway? What level of reduction do we start to feel it? Do we expect to be able to see it by the time we can feel it?

Or is it enough that they start to mess with the voicing of the instrument? We know for instance that the offset between the bottom of the ramp and the floor of the windway is an important parameter. If the said floor of the windway is covered over with a layer of condensation or even droplets, does that temporarily mess with that offset?

Can we induce clogging? I imagine blowing lightly would be more effective than blowing hard which might tend to be self-clearing?

Probably not helpful that I'm basking in summer down here. I've just popped an old Generation (flat windway) and a Killarney (curved windway) whistle into the freezer. Let's see if we can create problems where none existed!
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

OK, 30 minutes later, and I pull the whistles out of the freezer, one after the other. Both are very cold and instantly form condensation, particularly on the brass bits. I play the Killarney and it does start to clog. I can see a lot of droplets forming on the ramp, and some down the windway. A quick suck yields the definite sense of moisture. Seems OK after that.

Then the old Generation. No real sense of clogging though, and I can feel the tube warming up as I play. A suck doesn't yield a strong sense of moisture. Nor does it improve playing.

I'm inclined to take this on face value. The Killarney is mostly brass, with a delrin stopper and cover. It has a thin curved windway. I think all that makes it susceptible to clogging. The Generation is all lightweight plastic apart from the fingering tube. It has a relatively big flat windway. I think that makes it relatively immune to clogging.

Thoughts, anyone? Hmmm, could be interesting to try it on the MK Pro head....
Post Reply