Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

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Terry McGee
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

hans wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:12 am I am going to make myself some gauges like that, either in some plastic or hardwood. I like to try to create radially tapered windways on Delrin/aluminium whistle heads.
Now am I right in thinking, hans, that in the type of whistles you make, the windway height is defined by the wall thickness of the aluminium tube? So to go to tapered windway heights would involve digging downwards into the stopper or upwards into the cover?
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by hans »

Terry McGee wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:42 am
hans wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:12 am I am going to make myself some gauges like that, either in some plastic or hardwood. I like to try to create radially tapered windways on Delrin/aluminium whistle heads.
Now am I right in thinking, hans, that in the type of whistles you make, the windway height is defined by the wall thickness of the aluminium tube? So to go to tapered windway heights would involve digging downwards into the stopper or upwards into the cover?
It would, and upward would be a better direction , I guess. I am not convinced that this radial taper is necessarily any improvement over a longitudinal taper, which i have been employing anyway so far. I have been making some whistles with what you call the "sleeve" out of Delrin, and tapering that radially would be a possibility, for experimental sake at least.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

hans wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:03 am It would, and upward would be a better direction , I guess.
Yeah, I wondered about that too. Downwards (digging a trench in the top of the stopper) would be easier than digging a trench in the top inside of a cover, at least for those of us that have a mill! But something is nudging me to believe that sloping the top of the windway downwards would be better than sloping the bottom upwards. Unless it yielded too great an offset between bottom of windway and bottom of ramp.
I am not convinced that this radial taper is necessarily any improvement over a longitudinal taper, which i have been employing anyway so far.
Hmmm, which reminds me that I should have been noting the tapering width of the windways as well as their height! Sigh.

Now it is possibly significant that all of the windways I have measured so far have had tapering of the height and, from a quick glance, width. But we have to keep in mind that they are with one exception (The Killarney) all moulded products, and the manufacturers would have faced the need to be able to get the former out of inside the windway once set. So that alone would be strong incentive to taper the windway in both dimensions.
I have been making some whistles with what you call the "sleeve" out of Delrin, and tapering that radially would be a possibility, for experimental sake at least.
It would be brilliant if you could have two covers, one with no trench, and the second with a tapered trench so we could test the significance of the tapered windway on a whistle where everything else is fixed.

Sigh, you can only wonder if this has all been gone into in depth somewhere and is published in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America....
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

And just to remind you of (so far) the champion of windway size and taper, an old brown plastic Dolmetsch Treble recorder (F, six finger note = G) with these vital statistics:
Location, height
0 3.6
9.5 3.3
18 2.98
34 2.5
33.4 2.4
36.6 2.3
64.2 1.3

A reduction in height down to 36%

And with widths:
Entry 13.4
Exit 12.48

I wonder if they did that on their wooden recorders too?
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by stringbed »

[ETA: I’ve corrected two whoppings misreadings of digital calipers noted by Terry in a subsequence post, with thanks for the catch.]

The windway of the Tony Dixon model seen here is arched at its entrance and flat at its exit. The surface of the block is flat over its entire length and the transition is entirely along the roof. I assume that this instantiates the radial taper that Hans has been talking about, and compounds it with the axial taper caused by the squooshing. The windway entrance is 2.8 mm high at its midpoint, tapering to zero at the sides. I haven’t measured the windway exit (and ain’t gonna) but it eyeballs comparably within the Feadog/Generation/Walton cluster.

I have never had the slightest problem with this model clogging even after the freezer torture test. The inner diameter of the pipe is 12.5 mm and the cast mouthpieces are identical for both the C and D models. Unsurprisingly, the high B on the latter speaks the slightest tad more reluctantly than it does on the C whistle, which is generally the better balanced of the two. From my perspective, the real advantage from my perspective of these Dixons within its quality niche derives from the thick wall of the body giving a fully useful oxxxoo.

Answering Terry’s question, the Dolmetsch wooden recorders that I have examined have tapering windways. I have a top-of-the-line soprano made in the 1950s on a shelf somewhere, will go looking for it, and report back.

And with regard to the question Hans posed: “I wonder what kind of smoothness of windway inner surfaces was obtained in the voicing process? And as wood absorbs some moisture, will that lead to surfaces less smooth?”

A smooth windway surface is at the top of the list of desirable attributes. Unless there is visible damage that needs repair, burnishing the windway surface is commonly the first thing done when servicing a recorder. It can effect a dramatic improvement and is one of the few things a voicer will feel comfortable doing on an instrument of someone else’s manufacture.
Last edited by stringbed on Wed Jan 18, 2023 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

stringbed wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:23 am The windway of the Tony Dixon model seen here is arched at its entrance and flat at its exit.
Argghhh, just when we think we're getting a handle on this, they come up with a mutant!
The surface of the block is flat over its entire length and the transition is entirely along the roof. I assume that this instantiates the radial taper that Hans has been talking about, and compounds it with the axial taper caused by the squooshing. The windway entrance is 28mm high at its midpoint, tapering to zero at the sides.
I assume that entrance is 2.8mm high, not 28mm!
I haven’t measured the windway exit (and ain’t gonna) but it eyeballs comparably within the Feadog/Generation/Walton cluster.
And yeah, it's interesting that all of the whistles I've measured so far come out with a pretty narrow range of exit heights.
I have never had the slightest problem with this model clogging even after the freezer torture test. The inner diameter of the pipe is 25mm and the cast mouthpieces are identical for both the C and D models. Unsurprisingly, the high B on the latter speaks the slightest tad more reluctantly than it does on the C whistle, which is generally the better balanced of the two.
Hang on, bore of 25mm? Are we talking an octave down?
The real advantage of these Dixons from my perspective derives from the thick wall of the body giving a fully useful oxxxoo.
But doesn't flatten the top A and B too much?
Answering Terry’s question, the Dolmetsch wooden recorders that I have examined have tapering windways. I have a top-of-the-line soprano made in the 1950s on a shelf somewhere, will go looking for it, and report back.
Heh heh, if I could characterise the attitude of recorder players I have known, the best place for Dolmetsch recorders is "on a shelf somewhere"! Once Continental European
recorders started to make their way to Australia, local players shunned Dolmetsch. We also had a very good maker here in Melbourne, Fred Morgan. I visited his shop woah, way back in the seventies. He trained a number of younger recorder makers, one of whom, Michael Grinter, went on to make Irish flutes, up to his untimely death in a road accident. Hmmm, I seem to remember Fred also met his end in a road accident.
And with regard to the question Hans posed: “I wonder what kind of smoothness of windway inner surfaces was obtained in the voicing process? And as wood absorbs some moisture, will that lead to surfaces less smooth?”

A smooth windway surface is at the top of the list of desirable attributes. Unless there is visible damage that needs repair, burnishing the windway surface is commonly the first thing done when servicing a recorder. It can effect a dramatic improvement and is one of the few things a voicer will feel comfortable doing on an instrument of someone else’s manufacture.
When you say burnishing, I'm imagining running a hardened piece of steel over it, like we do with our kitchen knives. I usually take to the surfaces of a wooden windway with fine steel wool. Any better suggestion?
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by stringbed »

In immediate brief reply with a more extensive one forthcoming, today is obviously not the day for me to be using measuring tools. The maximum windway height is indeed 2.8 mm, and the reported 25 mm bore diameter is a miswritten 12.5 mm. I’ve gratefully corrected the initial post and am wondering if the time has come for me to surrender my calipers to the authorities.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by stringbed »

Moving on with Terry’s remarks:
"The real advantage of these Dixons from my perspective derives from the thick wall of the body giving a fully useful oxxxoo."

But doesn't flatten the top A and B too much?
Nope — and there's no hint of undercutting either.
When you say burnishing, I'm imagining running a hardened piece of steel over it, like we do with our kitchen knives. I usually take to the surfaces of a wooden windway with fine steel wool. Any better suggestion?
We used worn-out extremely fIne double-cut metal files. They were nearly useless for removing wood but were perfect for putting a sheen on a windway surface. Any substance they may actually have removed would have been the raised grain and irregularities that were getting in the way of things anyway. We used steel wool for the similar treatment of bores.
We also had a very good maker here in Melbourne, Fred Morgan. I visited his shop woah, way back in the seventies. He trained a number of younger recorder makers, one of whom, Michael Grinter, went on to make Irish flutes, up to his untimely death in a road accident. Hmmm, I seem to remember Fred also met his end in a road accident.
Fred was my house guest in Celle, Germany, for a week during his study visit to Europe in 1970. He was going from there to the States to work with Friedrich von Huene. As mentioned in a post in another thread (here), Friedrich also spent the summer of that year in Celle, but I can't recall their visits having overlapped. And yes, Fred was killed in a tragic road accident nearly 20 years later.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Anyway, I seem to have largely solved the issue of the aluminium head on the MK getting blocked by condensation in a cold room. I just play it upside down.

Not the whole thing of course, the tone holes are still the right way up, but I have the window facing the floor. The condensation runs straight out of it.

Okay, it feels a bit odd to begin with and of course there's more air resistance, but at least I can practise without getting frustrated. Slightly surprisingly, it's still as in tune as I get it when I play it the right way up.

So if I were making a metal-headed whistle, window floorwards would definitely have to be tested out—might as well work with gravity as against it.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Good thinking, Moof. I've been running into condensation problems here with my brass headed Killarney. And it has a plastic stopper and cover, so the brass is only at the sides of the windway and the ramp. I'll try the upside down trick and see if it helps with it too.

Do you then find that the condensation runs down the back of the whistle and makes your thumbs sticky? Or worse perhaps, drips off partway, down your, um, never mind....

Would a little pad of tissue or cloth held on by rubber bands help, or not necessary?
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Nanohedron »

Terry McGee wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:13 pm Would a little pad of tissue or cloth held on by rubber bands help, or not necessary?
So now it's come to this. Whistle diapers.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Terry McGee wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:13 pm Do you then find that the condensation runs down the back of the whistle and makes your thumbs sticky? Or worse perhaps, drips off partway, down your, um, never mind....

Would a little pad of tissue or cloth held on by rubber bands help, or not necessary?
I haven't yet made quite so much condensation that it would run all the way down to the top thumb!—but given the angle the whistle's held at and the fact it is runny condensation rather than sticky saliva, I think it would more likely drip into my lap. In the warmer weather, when my hands are functional enough to play for longer, I do occasionally get a drip out of the bottom end of the whistle anyway.

It makes such a difference that I began to wonder why they were ever designed with the window facing upwards to start with. Presumably it's to do with how the sound is projected? Or maybe volume? (The MK is so sod-off loud that even if it were actually made with a downward-facing window, I can't see much muting occurring.) There must be a reason for it, given that it's actually less convenient when it comes to managing moisture.
Nanohedron wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:48 pm So now it's come to this. Whistle diapers.
:lol:
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

So, not much condensation (in terms of the number of buckets needed to carry it away). But yet enough to lead to blocking.

And this is a curved windway whistle, correct? So when turned upside down, its the centre of the windway that's lowest, and presumably concentrating the flow? Is it better to have a single puddle in the middle, rather than two puddles on each side? Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice....
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Terry McGee wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:57 am So, not much condensation (in terms of the number of buckets needed to carry it away). But yet enough to lead to blocking.

And this is a curved windway whistle, correct? So when turned upside down, its the centre of the windway that's lowest, and presumably concentrating the flow? Is it better to have a single puddle in the middle, rather than two puddles on each side? Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice....
Yes, it has a curved windway.

But the condensation still seems to flow down the sides of the windway, even though the corners of the 'smile' are now pointing upwards instead of downwards. Maybe there's some kind of contouring inside that encourages this, or maybe it does gather in the centre initially, but then overflows and exits down the sides.

Looking at the window front-on, with the mouthpiece facing upwards, the path of the condensation runs from both corners of the windway exit, down either side of the U-shape of aluminium that surrounds the steel blade, and then collects in the bottom of the U. It then drips off when heavy enough. Basically, gravity clears the liquid much faster.

I know playing the thing upside down is completely barking, but it's helping my brain learn to operate my fingers without nearly so many interruptions, so it's kind of working. :lol: God forbid anyone ever has to listen to me anyway!
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Narzog »

Terry McGee wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:57 am So, not much condensation (in terms of the number of buckets needed to carry it away). But yet enough to lead to blocking.

And this is a curved windway whistle, correct? So when turned upside down, its the centre of the windway that's lowest, and presumably concentrating the flow? Is it better to have a single puddle in the middle, rather than two puddles on each side? Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice....
So when I've had 'clogging', its never truly clogged, Its just beads of water here and there, usually in a specific spot on the edges or on the Bevel. Which screws things up, usually making it play more 'raspy'. I feel like there should never be any serious water accumulation. If there was a huge clog of water it should be blown out or fall out from gravity. Sadly you dont need that much water tho to screw up how the whistle plays.

My question, do you guys hold the whistle straight forward, or angled down? When angled down water should be dripping out of the mouthpiece anyway and shouldn't be able to accumulate. So if the whistle was upside down or not, it shouldn't be able to accumulate in the top of the curve (which would then be the bottom if it was flipped).
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