Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by david_h »

Regarding anodizing aluminium or not. Would the surface tension and nature of nucleation points, and their influence on droplets (number, shape,size), be different? Or how a surfactant worked.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Terry McGee wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:22 am Hmmm, could be interesting to try it on the MK Pro head....
You've just made me Google "does extreme cold affect aluminium?" :lol: I'm so nervous about damaging other people's things. I'll try it—though it might only result in me not being able to play it at all without risking frostbite.

In the meantime, I tried the quick suck method this afternoon. It works really well and I can see how you'd soon learn to incorporate it smoothly, but as I needed to do it about every eight bars in my cold hallway, it quickly resulted in half a mouthful of condensation. It's a bit difficult get rid of mid-tune, so I ended up dribbling slightly.

To go back to an earlier question about tuning on the MK, I think the short answer might be "It depends how you play it". There's a good bit of variation on almost every note based on how you sound it, though this might partly be the interplay of small, general-purpose electronic tuners and a very breathy tone. I suspect the variation would be a useful facility for a pro, but perhaps less so to a beginner trying for a bit of consistency.

I couldn't get close on either whistle to a reasonably in-tune C nat or C# whilst also keeping the other notes in tune. I knew the C# sounded wrong; the natural didn't jar to my untrained ear, but the tuner says they're both out, in opposite directions. C# really ought to be okay, since it's part of the scale, but maybe I haven't done enough twiddling about with the tuning slide.

Right. Now to freeze a whistle.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

It seems a chilled whistle doesn't clog any faster than a merely cold one.

I put it in the fridge for half hour and the freezer for about five minutes, but I still had to wait a minute or so before I was confident my skin wouldn't stick to the mouthpiece. The material is so heat conductive, though, that it normalised to room temperature incredibly quickly. I guess that, if temperature is a big factor at all, it's the ambient temperature that matters.

The main result of the experiment is that a chilled whistle triggers Reynaud's, and a room-temperature one doesn't. I can't say it improved my playing much, as there's not much sensation in my fingers when the blood supply gets cut off! :lol:
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by bruce.b »

I played my MK Midgee and a Generation Bb this morning without warming them up. The Bb is the only plastic headed whistle I own. Both of them developed a burble in the tone after playing a tune or so. The Gen developed one sooner, but I’d call it a draw. Both of them still played, just not as cleanly as I’d prefer. I think my Midgie is less likely to clog than my MK Pro low D. I don’t think the freezer test is telling is anything new. I believe there is a consensus that playing in a cold room causes whistles to clog if not first warmed up, some worse than others.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Bruce, I forgot to thank you for the cork grips tip. I asked the friend who owns the MK whether I could apply some, and he said he'd meant to give me some silicone plectrum grips, but forgot; he too found the whistle a tad slippery. I popped round to get some this morning, and putting one where each of my thumbs goes has made all the difference. (He also said he's not going to have much time to go back to playing sessions until late Feb, so I've got it on loan for a bit longer than I thought. :D)
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Terry McGee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:33 pm You've put your finger on a Long-Felt-Want, Moof, an easy method of gauging windway heights and tapers. It would much improve the quality of discussions like these if we had some real numbers available to us. The usual Vernier Calipers will work at the blowing end, but are useless thereafter, and of course all the interesting stuff happens thereafter. So let's put a few minutes thought into how at least some of us could equip ourselves to be able to contribute some facts.
I thought about this when I couldn't get to sleep last night. I worked in community theatre, and what our prop-maker would probably do is cover the window, dip the head in release agent, find something to hold it upright blowing end-down, fill it with two-part resin, insert something shaped like an inverted clout nail into the resin at the body end to form a handle to pull out the plug of material, and wait for it to go off.

It might take some experimentation to find the right resin mix, one that's thin enough to flow into a narrow windway but will still set; also, making a slightly flexible cast like this would be unlikely to give you sub-millimetre tolerances. But it would tell you a lot more than peering into a dark space through a small hole.

It assumes that the windway doesn't bulge out and then in again as it travels from the mouthpiece towards the body of the whistle, of course. If that were the case, then obviously the mould wouldn't come out whole (or possibly at all).

You could even try a proof of concept by spraying WD40 inside of your mouthpiece, filling it with water, and freezing it in a two-part process (to set some kind of handle into the wide end once the lower section has frozen solid). You'd have to get the right amount of slight warming to release the ice without melting it, though, and not have to mind the possibility of your whistle tasting vaguely of diesel for the next three months, so anyone with any sense probably wouldn't bother.


Method #2 involves courting a friendship with someone like David O'Hagan in Sheffield, who obviously has moulds to make his plastic Howard heads. Be surprised if he'd tell much, though.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Heh heh, great lateral thinking there, Moof, and I'm enjoying finding out more about you! I think that you've identified some of the risks involved in your suggested method, but you've also reminded us that we can't assume the windway is a predictable shape. More on that presently.

I am enjoying imagining a very crest-fallen Moof taking the flash new whistle back to its owner with its windway irrevocably blocked in resin, with a bent clout sticking out. Do we reckon Moof could outrun the now-outraged owner in her wheelchair? Or at least keep out of whistle-chucking range for the first quarter mile?

Now, I have been playing more with my proposed method (using twist drill bits as feeler gauges), and reckon I have some encouraging results to report. You'll remember that I first proposed just testing the windway at one or two places, but I can now see advantage in taking a number of points. As Moof correctly postulated, the windways are not always linear, indeed far from it, so the more data points you take, the more you understand what's actually happening in there.

I have come up with a good process for measuring, and I'll outline it here for others to try. Take the drill bit you intend to try next, and measure and note down its diameter at the blunt end. This is because you'll find its a little less than the nominal diameter. Next, hold the bit end-to-end in the caliper jaws, and zero the calipers. Now insert the drill bit blunt end first into the windway until it stops, with the spiral end sticking out. Turn the calipers upside down, and bring them up underneath the protruding drill bit. With the front edge of the calipers lodged against the mouthpiece just under the drill bit, start closing the calipers until the leading face of the moving section touches the tip of the drill bit. Turn calipers over and note down the reading, which is now a very accurate indication of how far the drill bit has entered the windway.

So, enough of the boring methodologies you chorus! What are you finding? Weird stuff, I reckon! Here's some tidbits....
My Killarney has the thinnest and straightest windway so far, going from 1.2 down to 1mm over about 25mm. That's a reduction to 83%.
A Feadog is next straightest, going from 1.87 down to 1.14 over 25mm. That's a reduction to 61%.
On old Generation (the type with the central ridge line) starts off flat at just over 1.6mm for 11mm, then tapers down to 1.37 by 23mm, then plummets almost vertically to 1mm by 25. A reduction to 62.5%. Note that makes it the same exit height as the Killarney, but it's gone a very different journey to get there.
A newer Generation (no central ridge) follows the same three stage reduction, but starting off flat at 1.93mm for just 5mm. It then tapers down to 1.44 at 24.7, before again plummeting to 1.26 at around 25mm. A reduction to 65%.
Finally, my Waltons(?) Mellow D follows the same pattern as the Newer Generation, but instead of plummeting at the end, it continues to taper down to 1.28 at a slightly greater windway length of 28.66. A reduction to 66%.

The correlation otherwise with the Newer Generation are very obvious. Were these made for Waltons by Generation, or did they snitch the measurements?

But now, heads swimming, consider this. The first 4 whistles are all based on 12mm bore tubing. But the Mellow D is based on much larger 13.5mm bore tubing. Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice!

And what's with the terminal plummeting on the Generations? An intended design feature? An unintended artifact of the moulding process? The effects of time?

I guess the good news is that we now seem to have a good easy way to investigate this issue. The bigger question is what does it all mean?
Last edited by Terry McGee on Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by hans »

stringbed wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:42 am When I was working for Moeck, the voicer's toolkit for the Rottenburgh model included a feeler gauge for setting the height of the windway. It was a few centimeters longer than the windway, which tapered along its length. The gauge was about five mm wide at the end held in the hand and narrowed to about three mm at the end that projected into the window. The side placed against the block was flat and the opposite side arched radially. The distance between those two faces matched the windway along its midline according to measurements provided by the model's designer, Friedrich von Huene.

The acceptable tolerance was determined by a reference mark scored across the top of the gauge. That mark needed to be fully visible in the window, with the other end of the go/no-go range set by the end of the gauge coming into contact with the edge. Friedrich placed no great stock in absolute measurements in the voicing process and showed me (and presumably the other voicers) how to adjust the gauge according to individual preference.

I know that other makers were using similar gauges at the time and assume that the practice hasn’t gone out of fashion. There shouldn’t be any reason why they couldn't be adapted to measuring whistle windways. However, I would be surprised if it turns out that there is a clear correlation between windway height and propensity for clogging independent of other measurable factors — including additional physical dimensions and material properties.
Hi stringbed, I really appreciate your observations and insights and careful considerations! Thank you for your contributions to this discussion!
"Friedrich placed no great stock in absolute measurements in the voicing process ..." I like that! You get your build near some developed ideal, and you tweak it till it feels right. And you take courage from that to adjust our ideal further...

I am going to make myself some gauges like that, either in some plastic or hardwood. I like to try to create radially tapered windways on Delrin/aluminium whistle heads.

I wonder what kind of smoothness of windway inner surfaces was obtained in the voicing process? And as wood absorbes some moisture, will that lead to surfaces less smooth?
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by hans »

Terry McGee wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:09 am I have come up with a good process for measuring, and I'll outline it here for others to try. Take the drill bit you intend to try next, and measure and note down its diameter at the blunt end. This is because you'll find its a little less than the nominal diameter. Next, hold the bit end-to-end in the caliper jaws, and zero the calipers. Now insert the drill bit blunt end first into the windway until it stops, with the spiral end sticking out. Turn the calipers upside down, and bring them up underneath the protruding drill bit. With the front edge of the calipers lodged against the mouthpiece just under the drill bit, start closing the calipers until the leading face of the moving section touches the tip of the drill bit. Turn calipers over and note down the reading, which is now a very accurate indication of how far the drill bit has entered the windway. process? The effects of time?
Hmmm, I am not comfortable poking steel into whistle's windways. I appreciate you are getting some step measurements, but I like to avoid even the slightest danger of scratching surfaces. I'll need some soft gauges.

I guess the master of knowledge about windway height and blowing pressures would be Colin Goldie.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Hi hans, stringbed

The D cross section go/no-go gauge will work brilliantly for bringing an instrument into line (as von Huene intended), but not for investigating existing instruments, unless you make a fair number of them to cover the range.

If you don't want to use steel, hans, there might be some soft alternatives. Nylon cello strings, fishing line (for sharks?), very fine knitting needles? Of course, the size is only critical at the leading edge, so you could make a series of probes that had thinner shafts and the nominal size of head. I'm being characteristically lazy, looking for an existing product. I think as long as you don't ram the drill bit up the windway, you are unlikely to do any damage. You could stone off the first mm if you wanted and add a mm to every reading....
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Now note that I've gone back and indicated the degree of reduction in height in percentage terms. Don't know if that is helpful, but it's part of the journey....
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by stringbed »

Terry wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:09 am But now, heads swimming, consider this. The first 4 whistles are all based on 12mm bore tubing. But the Mellow D is based on much larger 13.5mm bore tubing. Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice!
The Mellow D whistle gets its name and sound from the intentional use of a C-diameter pipe, notwithstanding the punny moniker.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Indeed. And, being a flute player, I enjoy its stronger, more fundamental tone than the puny Generations, Feadogs, Killarneys, etc. But I guess I was surprised by the fact it uses pretty much the same windway profile as the newer much slimmer Generations. Woah, there are more questions here than answers....
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Terry McGee wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:09 am I am enjoying imagining a very crest-fallen Moof taking the flash new whistle back to its owner with its windway irrevocably blocked in resin, with a bent clout sticking out. Do we reckon Moof could outrun the now-outraged owner in her wheelchair? Or at least keep out of whistle-chucking range for the first quarter mile?
He'd probably ask me why I didn't just saw one in half if I wanted to know so much. :lol: Luckily I'm not tempted to investigate, as I have more than enough on trying to learn to play the ruddy things.

If I did want to understand the construction, I'd probably spend the price of a posh sandwich on a cheap high whistle, and ask a prop maker how best to cut through it without cracking or deforming the plastic. They routinely have to do bizarre things to objects in order to transform them into whatever they need, so they're first class dissectors; last time I popped into the workshop at my former employer's, the bench was covered in recently decapitated small plastic dolls. (I didn't bother asking.)

I suppose you'd struggle to cut flimsy metal cleanly in half, unless you filled the voids first with something removable. Or better still, if a midwife or vet with a portable ultrasound owed you a lot of favours, you might be able to leave it intact.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

stringbed wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:06 am
Terry wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:09 am But now, heads swimming, consider this. The first 4 whistles are all based on 12mm bore tubing. But the Mellow D is based on much larger 13.5mm bore tubing. Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice!
The Mellow D whistle gets its name and sound from the intentional use of a C-diameter pipe, notwithstanding the punny moniker.
Which prompted me to investigate the windway of my old Generation C whistle (the rest have all been treble Ds). It's of the "ridge down the centre" era.

For interest's sake, here are all the measurements for that windway:

00.00 - 1.87
08.58 - 1.72
13.02 - 1.69
18.18 - 1.54
19.71 - 1.51
22.16 - 1.43
25.62 - 1.35
27.88 - 1.25

So, fairly uniformly tapered from 1.87 at the start down to 1.25 at the window. A reduction to 67%. And not quite as big as the Walton's Mellow D windway.

And, playing them both on the same tube (one I made), the old Generation head is a little more muted, a little less bright sounding. But that's fairly likely to be a product of different voicing. Which raises the ugly question, how can we measure voicing? And why is it taking us so long to find a way?

Oh, and I'm not immediately aware of any difference in resistance or air use between the two.
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