Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

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hans
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by hans »

Sirchronique wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:40 pm I do wonder if part of it has to do with how smooth the surface texture of the windway interior is, and this varying from whistle to whistle. I think some just aren’t as smooth inside and it allows the moisture to bead up more easily.
I totally agree, the smoother the better, I'd say. The aluminium may well also further oxidise, and make a windway less mooth, and tighter too. Sometimes smoothening it with the use of 1200 grit metal sanding paper, folded a few times to suit the windway height, may be a good thing.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Heh heh, Hans, I'm contrasting your "1200 grit metal sanding paper" with my hot-off-the-lathe experiments in Delrin, where the remaining spiral groove from the cutting tool is still visible and tangible. I guess I should at least move to round-tipped tools, even for experiments! Sigh, back to the grindstone...

Now, I must say I'm still struggling a bit to imagine the workings of these new-fangled whistles like the Mk series. I've not seen one in the live (it's been quiet down here in Australia lately!), nor have I seen a decent close-up image (that might be my fault - please feel free to point me at one!).

Am I right in concluding that we have two sections, a head and a body, and....

The head has:
- an outer cylindrical shell, in pretty-coloured anodised aluminium, with an elongated D-shaped slot to reveal the window, ramp and some of the inner shell. It's inner surface forms the ceiling of the windway?
- an inner aluminium cylindrical shell which forms the bore, the sides of the windway, the window and the ramp. It's wall thickness therefore being fairly important!
- a stopper which plugs the front of the inner shell, forming the floor of the windway, and
- a socket at the other end to receive the tuning slide? Brass-lined, or just bored into the aluminium?

And the body has:
- the same outer cylindrical shell, in pretty-coloured anodised aluminium, to maintain the same outer diameter?
- the same inner cylindrical shell to continue the bore at the same diameter?
- a brass tuning slide set in which then engages with the head socket.

That more-or-less correct or have I missed something important?

That would seem to make the wall thickness of the body relatively thick, which we've seen with some wooden cylindrical whistles tends to exacerbate the flattening of the top notes. That an issue with these whistles, or have they found a sneaky work-around?

I don't see any obvious way that the head parts are held together (say unlike the pin through the mouthpiece end of the Killarney). Can these be disassembled for maintenance, or do you have to work with what you've got?
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Terry McGee wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:23 pm Am I right in concluding that we have two sections, a head and a body, and....
The head has:

- an outer cylindrical shell, in pretty-coloured anodised aluminium, with an elongated D-shaped slot to reveal the window, ramp and some of the inner shell. Its inner surface forms the ceiling of the windway? Yes.

- an inner aluminium cylindrical shell which forms the bore, the sides of the windway, the window and the ramp. It's wall thickness therefore being fairly important! Not exactly. The double layer of aluminium appears to be just the mouthpiece, windway and 'frame' of the window; lower down the head, the end of the aluminium liner presumably buts up to the start of a brass liner that engages with the tuning slide.

- a stopper which plugs the front of the inner shell, forming the floor of the windway Yes.
and
- a socket at the other end to receive the tuning slide? Brass-lined, or just bored into the aluminium? Yes, brass-lined.

And the body has:

- the same outer cylindrical shell, in pretty-coloured anodised aluminium, to maintain the same outer diameter? Yes.

- the same inner cylindrical shell to continue the bore at the same diameter? It's hard to see. The top of the inner shell is the brass tuning slide itself, which continues down into the body; however, when you look at the toe end of the whistle it looks like a single thickness of aluminium (and it is thick, it's a heavy beastie). It must be an outer and a liner that are fused together by some witchcraft or other, as it doesn't look as if the whole body is brass-lined...however, I suppose it's possible it is, and the brass is painted the same colour as the aluminium.

- a brass tuning slide set in which then engages with the head socket. Yes.


If that makes any sense, it'll be a miracle! I'll take some photos tomorrow, when it's light.

As for the top notes, I'm having a bit of trouble getting it to sing—but I'm a novice who's not been playing long. It's a breathy whistle that somehow also manages to have a lot of volume and focus at the bottom end, but the top end just sounds breathy and a bit unsatisfactory when I play it. It does take some filling for a beginner.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Bravo Moof for those confirmations and corrections - very helpful. I look forward to any images you can manage.

And thanks for your early impressions! It will be interesting to see if anyone has a dramatically different reading on it. I'm particularly interested to know how the wall thickness impacts the tuning. Sounds like it does impact the weight. Lucky it's aluminium and not copper! Still, saves on all that time at the gym....
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by hans »

I've got a green low D MK whistle here, on loan. Don't know if it is called a "Pro". I am not too keen on some of the aspects, but I can observe the physical thing:
Window width is 12mm, window length 9mm (quite large to my standards), block protrusion 1mm, chamfered, a windway height of more than 1mm, 1.2 or 1.3mm I'd say. The labium is curt very steep. This makes it an easy blower, and it needs a lot of air for the upper second octave IMO.
I won't describe the various tubes, all well machined. But I see that the head has a bore restriction, similar to Overton whistles, without it having a squashed body. At the window the width of the bore is the same as the window width, the window extends with straight flat faces downwards to the bottom of the tube. The bottom of the bore at the window is curved, but the sides are flat, making the bore much thinner at the window end. This restriction is extending further southwards than the labium, all together from the block to about 20mm. It looks that this is part of the aluminium block design, so that the block is cut originally 20mm longer, then a slot with the width of the window is cut out, so that this part of the block extension serves as a bore restriction, no doubt for octave tuning.
(I hope this describes the head bore restriction with enough accuracy, it is pretty impossible to take a photo of it).
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by pancelticpiper »

I know that non-pipers have cast shade on this, but in the Highland piping world, since the pipes are mouth-blown and the reeds can change dramatically according to how much moisture they're subjected to, pipers have awareness of whether they're "wet blowers" or not.

(It's why in Pipe Bands, even though all the pipers might be using the same bag and same MCS and same reeds, some pipers' reeds get soaking wet, with the problems that wet reeds bring.)

This preamble is just to explain how I know that I'm a wet blower.

So when I play Low Whistles of the Overton style (made by Bernard himself or by one of the other makers he authorised such as Phil Hardy or Colin Goldie) which have two large flat parallel surfaces very close together I can clog them almost instantly.

I find the claim that if whistles are "warmed up" clogging issues are solved absurd. I live in Southern California and I leave a whistle in the car. There have been times when my car-whistle is so hot that I can barely hold it, yet it clogs just as quickly. People who live in cold climates would have to bake their whistle in the oven to 140f to simulate this. (They did a study, on a 95f day a car interior reached 138f. We get temps well over 95f in summer.)

The solution that worked for me is the toothpaste and dish detergent thing. What's amazing is how one treatment will keep my Goldie Low D playing clog-free for a year or more.

On the other hand, I've not had clogging issues with Low Whistles with curved windways like Burke and MK. If you clog an MK, a Goldie would be hopeless until you did the toothpaste or detergent thing.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Terry McGee wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:56 pm Bravo Moof for those confirmations and corrections - very helpful. I look forward to any images you can manage.
I've taken a few photos, but I've discovered I'm not sure how to post them. I use another phpBB-based forum that allows photo uploads, but I'm not sure this one does (perhaps because I'm new to it). I've posted a Dropbox link, but I don't know whether this will work even though I've set permissions to 'anyone with link can open'. Perhaps you could let me know?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/34ytlqlp ... h4nxjfbxp0
Terry McGee wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:56 pm I'm particularly interested to know how the wall thickness impacts the tuning. Sounds like it does impact the weight.
I can't seem to remember to buy batteries for my tuner, so I don't really have a sense of it; I've no musician's ear. I know it sounds best overall with the tuning slide open about 5 or 6mm, but that's all.

The thickness does affect the weight, but when I stuck it on a scale and compared it to my Howard, there's less discrepancy than I imagined. MK Pro is 239g compared to the Howard's 186g, but it feels nearly twice as heavy. Maybe a combination of the surface, which is harder to grip, and the balance.

The wall thickness affects the tone a lot, of course. The Howard has a finely spun brass tube that feels resonant throughout the range, but I can't feel the top end of the MK much at all. (When I say 'feels' rather than 'sounds', I mean the resonance you feel in your chest and head cavities when playing an instrument—which sounds like hippy codswallop when you write it down, but it is there.)

As for the actual sound, I don't think I've properly found its voice yet. When I started learning on the Howard, it took me a while to realise that if I blow it strongly, it speaks, but if I focus the airstream and just hold back a bit, it sings. Try that with the MK and it sounds like you're playing it through a cocktail straw. It's not interested in air from the top of your chest, it wants it from your diaphragm, which is a different way of blowing for me. My hands are in a really bad way and cramp after half an hour of playing, so it might be time to give the MK back to my mate before I begin to find its sound. It's certainly a lot more complex, and I guess if you can really play, it probably offers you more scope.
Last edited by Moof on Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

pancelticpiper wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:57 am I find the claim that if whistles are "warmed up" clogging issues are solved absurd.
I'd largely agree in my (very limited) experience. But I live in Britain, and whilst I didn't do anything to warm the whistle up in the summer, in the winter it will clog almost immediately if I start cold, presumably because warm moist air does condense on cold surfaces. You automatically open the window wide when you get in the car on a cold morning here, because otherwise you can't see where you're going when your breath hits the windscreen. The temperature differential isn't so great indoors, of course, even if the room is unheated, but it does make some difference.

In my case, fatigue seems to have much more of an impact on whether or not my Howard clogs. It's absolutely fine at the outset, the clogging only starts in the last 10 minutes of a practice. I have limited energy due to illness, and I think I just get sloppy ... something changes, anyway, it's hard to be sure quite what. If I take a break, it seems to be better again for a little while.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by bruce.b »

My music room is cold in the winter. I hold my MK in front of a little portable heater to warm it up when I play and it works great. It will rapidly clog if I play it cold, plus it’s really cold to the touch if I don’t do this. It doesn’t seem to clog when it’s warm in the room. I haven’t done any treatments to it, toothpaste or anticondense.
As far as the tone, it’s my favorite. It’s loud, focused, and smoky sounding, a gorgeous sound. I find MK’s to be very expressive, you can vary the tone a lot with breath pressure, plus they respond instantly to articulations. They are also, for me, exceptionally easy to play, though the satin finish is slippery. I put cork guitar pick grips on them where my thumbs rest and it makes them very secure to hold.
I love how they look, both the design and the anodized finish, which is significantly tougher than bare Al. Easily my favorite whistles. I’ve decided I’m only going to play MK’s and sell my other makes.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by RoberTunes »

This important and popular topic of clogging brings to mind the issue of how in general, the larger the windway dimension, the longer it will take for clogging
to happen. Meaning that going from high D down to low D and low C, the lower the key, the larger the windway gets, so theoretically, for an identical whistle
design (pick one), at some point, a lower key would see clogging become much less of a possibility or issue, vs a higher key in that design.

I know that clogging is a problem with high key whistles, but I'm amazed of the clogging problems with low key whistles, considering how much larger
the windways are.

I can't imagine buying a low D or low C whistle that is known to clog easily, because the windway is about as big as it's going to get in any whistle. I'd go for delrin
or other plastic as a mouthpiece design, or some mixed or fully metal design that's known to not be a clogger in the lower keys. So this is a great topic for whistle shoppers.

The variations in windway design such as "soft blower", "medium" or "hard blower" with the varying levels of resistance and windway dimension, should be available
to everyone before purchasing.

If an alto or low whistle has a consistent problem as being "an easy clogger", then you'd better know how to deal with it and like the tone and playability
and put up with the issue, or you're suffering from WHOAD in a way that's unnecessary. Sell it! With high D or higher keyed whistles, different predicament with
the related laws of physics going on; tiny windway = easy fast clogging possibility.

Hence, still need someone to invent a whistle mouthpiece heater for some fully metal designs in high keys. Makers of
non-clogging all-metal whistles in low keys should be using that as a major selling feature, not just a minor note, or not stated at all.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by bruce.b »

Hmmm. in my experience plastic whistles clog too. I don’t know why some people are wet blowers and some aren’t. I’m a wet blower and I clog high whistles too. Do low whistles clog more easily than high? I’m not sure. MK’s tend to clog less for me than most other whistles, including delrin heads. I’ve sold delrin whistles due to clogging. Goldie whistles are known as cloggers, yet many pros play them and don’t seem to have a problem. Why? Is it technique? Toothpaste treatment? I’m doubtful of the claim that curved windways clog less than straight. Is it true in people’s experience? I don’t have any answers.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Narzog »

What's interesting with clogging and material, there's seems to be no consistency. I've had giant water globs stick to my Delrin Reyburn low D right on the bevel. always in the same spot. But unlike on some other whistles it doesnt seem to have too much effect. I may re toothpaste it, I recall that fixing it when I got it originally. VS on my thunderbird and Goldie, having a water glob on the bevel ruined it. Toothpaste helped but wasn't enough so I gave up and sold them. I couldn't do anything without noticeable moisture issues. My Burke A could occasional clog up inside a bit when I first got it. It just never has issues anymore. My MK is virtually immune to moisture issues. I feel liek it possibly had some minor moisture issues at first but liek the burke they went away. I almost wonder if sometimes playing it makes a coating of gunk or something that repels water. Because that's the only thing I can think of for my MK and Burke. I only wash the outsides which get mouth gunk on them. I'm worried that cleaning the inside could make them start clogging lol.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Moof wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:11 am I've taken a few photos, but I've discovered I'm not sure how to post them. I use another phpBB-based forum that allows photo uploads, but I'm not sure this one does (perhaps because I'm new to it). I've posted a Dropbox link, but I don't know whether this will work even though I've set permissions to 'anyone with link can open'. Perhaps you could let me know?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/34ytlqlp ... h4nxjfbxp0
Great images, thanks Moof! They give me a much better appreciation for the construction of the instrument than the official images do!
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Terry McGee »

Now, if I understand correctly, the stopper on the Mk whistles is also aluminium? So we have a thin, wide windway whose ceiling, floor and two side walls are all made from a material celebrated as a great conductor of heat? And we insist on breathing water-saturated air through it? Then isn't condensation and risk of subsequent clogging pretty much guaranteed?

Interesting to compare the coefficients of thermal conductivity for various materials. I'll set them out in order of most conductive at the top, with the most insulating therefore at the bottom. The unit is watts per meter Kelvin (W/mK), but don't worry about that, just compare the numbers.

Silver 419
Copper 386
Aluminium 239
Brass (60/40) 96
Iron*, pure 80
Tin* 67
Stainless Steel 25

Water 0.6

Plastics 0.2 to 0.5
Woods 0.1–0.2

The Mk construction also means that the windway can never really heat up. It's connected thermally with the entire tube, which will act like a Heat Sink, conducting the heat away from the head and your hands, and radiating and convecting it into the room.

So, isn't there an argument that the front end of whistles, say up to and including the blade, should be made of a low thermal conductivity material to minimise condensation and the risk of subsequent clogging? Whereas the bodies should be made of a high conductivity material to minimise heat gain and subsequent tuning change as you play?

Gulp. Haven't we just invented the Generation Whistle?

*I've given both tin and iron so we can see where tinplate whistles like the Clarke's might lie.
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Re: Mk Pro clogs in less than a minute

Post by Moof »

Terry McGee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:21 am So we have a thin, wide windway whose ceiling, floor and two side walls are all made from a material celebrated as a great conductor of heat? And we insist on breathing water-saturated air through it? Then isn't condensation and risk of subsequent clogging pretty much guaranteed?
If that's the only factor at play, I guess yes.

I keep thinking about the fact that my swimming goggles are all-plastic, and despite the low conductivity, if I put them on my warm face and stick it into cold water they mist up so much I can't see anything. But if I apply antifog coating, there's no [visible] misting at all. It completely changes the way the water interacts with the surface.

My plastic whistle mouthpiece isn't very different to the metal one when it comes to clogging. It's a bit better, but then again it does takes much less effort to blow the Howard than it does the MK. And then there's the mouth contact; I play with the plastic mouthpiece only just inside my lips and something of an embouchure, but if I don't stick the MK right in like a lollipop I can't get enough air into it. I'd imagine that effort and mouth position must have something of an influence, as well as the material and surface characteristics.

More generally, the difference between wet and dry playing might come down to individual factors like breath technique, dentition, and playing posture. I tire quickly, and my head tends to droop a bit as the energy fades—it's possible that my whistles block more when I'm fatigued partly due to gravity. If my head tilts downwards more, moisture is more likely to run into the mouthpiece.


PS: to go back to the swimming goggles ... in the dark old days before every sports shop sold spray-on antifog in convenient little bottles, everyone used saliva! :lol:
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