C Whistle - Transpose or Not

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Re: C Whistle - Transpose or Not

Post by oleorezinator »

Buy a bunch of whistles and figure it out
and by all means let us all know how you fare.
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Re: C Whistle - Transpose or Not

Post by Katharine »

I admit that while I understand the "instruments in C (or D) vs transposing" thing... I don't understand why some are transposing! Mind you, I get that someone once decided that "six fingers down is D," but not why this is always true. (Caveat: I've never played a transposing instrument, and perhaps I'm glad I haven't...) To my (possibly troglodytic) mind, I'd just rather call a note what it sounds like, regardless of what the fingering is. Mind you, when it comes to whistles I'll tend to speak as if they're all in D, but that's because they're a non-chromatic instrument and so I'd need many different instruments to get a full complement of keys (though I still might be likely to talk about actual notes if I'm referring to playing in a specific key, as for a church hymn in B-flat, rather than transposing a tune in D); if I'm playing something that doesn't require me to swap out instruments to play in a different key (easily), I wouldn't-- for example, if I was talking about soprano vs. alto recorders, I'd refer to "G" or "C" (respectively), not, say, "C fingering, but on a soprano recorder" when I meant G. Or, if I decided to transpose a tune down a fourth by playing it on viola rather than violin but keeping the fingerings (still considering lowest string as G, etc. etc.), it would be the same-- I would call two fingers on the lowest string E, not B. Or if I used something besides standard tuning on my guitar, I'd probably still call the note whatever it actually is, regardless of the fingering (I don't tend to play in non-standard tuning, though, so maybe people who do don't actually do it that way?).

So I get confused why a note on B-flat clarinet that sounds like C is actually called D (D? do I have that right?). Why not just call it what it is-- C-- and just accept that the fingering is different? If it works for recorder players who play both C and F instruments (as, from my understanding, most do), or violinists who double on viola (as many do), etc. etc., then why not for wind instruments?

(Yes, I know; I'm confusing the topic still further...)

Mr.Gumby wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:11 am
the varying simplified ABC notations that commonly appear in post-beginner tutorial contexts
Whistleplayers aren't expected to read staff notation. That's not something I see evidence of. The vast body of tune collections available in print would suggest otherwise to me.
Although this could then get us into the "in trad you should learn by ear, not by reading music" argument, so possibly to purists, it is true?
Here's tae us--
Wha's like us?
Damn few--
And they're a' deid--
Mair's the pity.
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Re: C Whistle - Transpose or Not

Post by stringbed »

Katharine wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:47 pm I get confused why a note on B-flat clarinet that sounds like C is actually called D (D? do I have that right?). Why not just call it what it is-- C-- and just accept that the fingering is different? If it works for recorder players who play both C and F instruments (as, from my understanding, most do), or violinists who double on viola (as many do), etc. etc., then why not for wind instruments?
The clarinet differs from the flute and tin whistle by the first overblown register being a twelfth rather than an octave above the fundamental register. Seemingly identical fingerings therefore produce different notes in each. Keywork is also needed to bridge the two registers, all resulting in a relatively complex fingering system. The clarinet was pretty much born into the classical orchestra and its initial four-key system was rapidly expanded to a two-digit number to accommodate increasing demands for chromatic flexibility.

Yes — a B-flat clarinetist regards a sounding C as a D. But an orchestral player regularly needs both a Bb and an A instrument, and may be required to alternate between them during the course of the same piece. Although less frequent, orchestral writing also calls for a smaller Eb clarinet. It is not reasonable to expect a player to keep track of three different mappings of concert pitch to the same intricate key system — much less do so while rapidly switching between instruments in a performance situation.

Clarinets in C, D, F, and Ab are encountered in other musical contexts. Conceptualizing and using all sizes as concert instruments would be a daunting feat of mental and motoric gymnastics. For the obvious reason, sooner or later a clarinetist will need to deal with music notated at concert pitch. Many — but by no means all — therefore learn to “read up a tone” on a Bb instrument. This is not an ability that any composer or arranger expects, to say nothing of the skill in transposition that would be required beyond that.
…if I used something besides standard tuning on my guitar, I'd probably still call the note whatever it actually is, regardless of the fingering (I don't tend to play in non-standard tuning, though, so maybe people who do don't actually do it that way?).
Fretted instruments with variable tunings are, and were from the outset, commonly written for in tablature. Early instructions manuals for the violin recommend tablature for it as well, as an expedient prior to tackling the putatively more daunting task of reading staff notation. There is also a long history of heated debate about the best way to make abstract reference to notes in pedagogical contexts.
Last edited by stringbed on Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C Whistle - Transpose or Not

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Katharine wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:47 pm I
Although this could then get us into the "in trad you should learn by ear, not by reading music" argument, so possibly to purists, it is true?
That is certainly a discussion that hasn't come up for a long time and I hope it will stay that way. Using ABC notation, which is what we were talking about, is still using notation, obviously.

I don't know what a 'purist' is. A term people on the Internet throw at you in attempt to dismiss you when they don't agree with your argument. That's my experience anyway.

I don't think any traditional musician has been taken aside for a quiet word because they lifted a tune from a book.

Which reminds me of a very much tongue in cheek encounter referring to these discussions that I described in a post here in 2003, when the eye vs ear discussion was a regular feature both here and the wider internet:
A few weeks ago there was a piper's meeting in Spanish Point Co Clare. At some point of it I was sitting down in the bar having a cup of tea and browsing through a book I had just bought, one of tunes from the repertoire of leo Rowsome. Sean Potts spotted me from the other corner, he came up to me, put his hand on my shoulder and said in my ear 'but Peter, they should only be learned by ear' and went of with a big grin on his face.
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Re: C Whistle - Transpose or Not

Post by NicoMoreno »

[
stringbed wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:49 am
NicoMoreno wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:22 pm …it's much easier to say "play a D!" and mean XXX XXX (for the whistle) rather than "play all fingers down!" regardless of the actual pitch of the instrument.
More information than a single note name is usually needed to determine the appropriate whistle for whatever tune is being discussed. A plausible alternative directive in a group context where no form of music notation is employed might be, “The tune is in D major, so if you’re playing a D whistle the key note is your six-finger note. If you’re playing an G whistle, it’s the two-finger note.” T
No, you misunderstood, and made things way more complicated than needed. I'm talking about a single note. A very common thing that happens all the time, such as in lessons, when playing tunes with friends, in sessions, and elsewhere, is that you're playing a tune, and you say "No, that note is a D, not an E" (or something similar). If we happen to be playing instruments that are not concert pitch, we still refer to the note as if it is concert pitch. Because it's not the absolute pitch that matters, it's the fingering or the relative pitch that's important. Note: generally speaking, in non-concert pitch sessions, all of the instruments being played are transposing instruments (pipes, whistle, flute, and fiddles that have been tuned up or down), but occasionally a harpist, pianist, or guitarist with a capo also joins, and sometimes it does become necessary to translate.
Katharine wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:47 pm Mind you, when it comes to whistles I'll tend to speak as if they're all in D,
You are doing exactly what transposing instruments do, so you actually do understand it. That's exactly what a transposing instrument is - something that you're referring to isn't actually in concert pitch, but to make it easier on yourself, you think of it as if it is, and deal with the discrepancy another way.
Katharine wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:47 pm but that's because they're a non-chromatic instrument
Interestingly, while that's somewhat irrelevant (since transposing instruments exist that are both fully chromatic and not), it is most likely part of why transposition is a thing (like I said, I have theories)
Last edited by NicoMoreno on Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C Whistle - Transpose or Not

Post by david_h »

Of topic, but highlighting a red-herring (not from NicoMoreno)
NicoMoreno wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:25 am A very common thing that happens all the time, such as in lessons, when playing tunes with friends, in sessions, and elsewhere, is that you're playing a tune, and you say "No, that note is a D, not an E" (or something similar).
(My emphasis on "you say".). I think that is why the "ABC notations that commonly appear in post-beginner tutorial contexts" is not relevant in this discussion. People talk about notes and a lot of tutorial text is 'talking on paper' (or on a blackboard). Little fragments of notation graphics elsewhere on the page ("see figure 52") or requiring lines drawn on the whiteboard (or one with them pre-drawn) don't, I suggest, aid communication as well as if people know what the notes are called and they can be inserted 'inline' in the text. It's not to do with people being unable to read notation, it's to do with serving a purpose by convenient means.
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