low g search

[luisdent]

I have a buunch of whistles, but my favorite is my killarney Bb. I love everything about it.

Can anyone recommend a low G whistle that would feel like I was playing a killarney in terms of feel, breath, control, etc., but just lower? low f would be cool too. I prefer narrow bore, not too loud or too wide finger spacing for my smaller hands...

[fatmac]

I don't own a Kilarny, but do have 2 nice low 'G' whistles, an ABS & a Trad Brass, both by Tony Dixon - also 2 low 'F' whistles, Shearwater & MK, both aluminium.

None are overly loud, but all have good tone.

[pancelticpiper]

Can anyone recommend a low G whistle that would feel like I was playing a Killarney in terms of feel, breath, control, etc.?

I prefer a narrow bore, not too loud...

I have a couple Killarney D's and I also love the way they play.

I recently got a Jerry Freeman mezzo G (based on a Generation Bb head) and I really like how it plays.

It's a narrow bore G, the bore is 15mm as opposed to the Michael Burke (16.8mm) and my old Susato (17.4mm). Both the Burke and Susato are loud and really have to be "blown out" on the high notes. The Freeman is quiet and has super-sweet high notes.

But the price for the sweet high notes is not having a powerful bellnote like the Burke and Susato have.

I prefer a narrow bore, not too wide finger spacing for my smaller hands.

Funny, I just checked the hole placements on my Freeman mezzo G (15mm bore) and my Susasto mezzo G (17.4mm bore) and they're practically identical, though the whistles play very differently.

A Low F would be cool too.

Jerry Freeman also makes a Low F but I've not tried it. If also based on the Generation Bb head it would be a very narrow-bore F.

I had a Michael Burke F (19.8mm bore) and I found it too "tubby" for me.

Then I purchased a Colin Goldie F (18.2mm bore) and I love it. It has the perfect balance between sweet-enough high notes and strong-enough low notes.

Anyhow I'm just now ordering a Colin Goldie mezzo G and I'm anxious to feel how it plays. I ordered his "narrow bore" G. (I'm not sure what the bores of his "narrow bore" and "wide bore" G whistles are.)

[Narzog]

I'm not sure how the Killarney plays, I haven't had one. But I can give my quick 2 cents on different G's and other makers to maybe give some helpful info.

I have a Reyburn aluminum low G. The aluminum is a small bore, overblows easy, super easy high notes. So if you like that style whistle, its incredibly nice to play. Exquisite tuning. I like harder blowing whistles and I still like it. So its very good at what it does. Great indoor practice whistle, only the top of second octave feels loud. To my knowledge the Reyburn Brass is larger bore and overblows harder. Sadly both have a pretty high price tag, but if you can afford it and like it its worth it.

I love my MK pro low d, and bet the Mk pro low G is also nice. The Mk just plays well. Good backpressure and air efficiency, good volume with a strong bell note, no squeaking or weird quirks. Easily one of my favorite whistles I've played, possibly #1.

If you like a bit of push, Burkes are really nice. I have a Burke A. Similar to Reyburns, it's incredibly easy to play in tune. Its just harder to underblow or overblow notes, the breath curve needed feels just right to me. Strong bell note, no accidentally overblowing anything. Will use a bit more air. I had a Burke F I sold because it used WAY more air than the A. But I think the G should be closer to the A from what I've read.

I had a susato G. Really wasnt bad, but I didn't like the tone. It felt a little harder to play than the makers above.

[Peter Duggan]

I prefer narrow bore, not too loud or too wide finger spacing for my smaller hands...

Narrower bore normally goes with longer tube and wider spacing for any given pitch. It's physics and one of the prices of narrower bore, particularly in lower whistles where spacing's more likely to be significant for most people.

[Jerry Freeman]

When I can get to it I will make wider-bore low F and tenor G whistles built on the same setup I use for the low D tweaked Generations. I expect these will be really great whistles.

A standard bore whistle has a length to bore ratio typically between 22.0 and 23.0. For example, a key of D Generation/Feadog/Waltons, etc. has a length to bore ratio of 22.7.

My Freeman tweaked key of D Mellow Dog is a wide bore whistle with a length to bore ratio of 19.3.

A Bb Generation has a length to bore ratio of 22.4.

My key of A tweaked Generation is a standard bore whistle with a length to bore ratio of 22.2.

My current tenor G tweaked Generation has a length to bore ratio of 25.4, It's a narrow bore whistle, with the characteristics Richard has described.

A tenor G tweaked Generation made with the headjoint system I use in my tweaked Low D Generation will be a standard bore whistle with a length to bore ratio of 22.5

My current low F tweaked Generation has a length to bore ratio of 29.8. It's a very narrow bore whistle.

A low F tweaked Generation made with the headjoint system I use in my tweaked Low D Generation will have a length to bore ratio of 26.4. It will be a narrow bore whistle. Even so, I expect it will be a strong whistle and an improvement over the low F whistles I've made so far.

With my heartfelt best wishes,
Jerry

[luisdent]

thanks for all the replies! great to hear from you jerry! you f and g narrow seem like good possibilities. it's hard for me to describe what I'm looking for as I'm not a whistle expert at all. i have a low f that i absolutely love everything about. it isn't too thick, note spacing is easy to play, holes aren't too big, but it is relatively quiet and is almost hard to play without overblowing.

i hate to keep coming back to it, but the killarney is just amazing. i own a shearwater a and g i think that i like and another maker's low d i think. but they are harder to finger as the holes are either too wide and/or too large. i can easily pipers grip my low f and it feels great, the other low whistles i struggle to get full hole coverage or spacing requires uncomfortable stretching. the shearwater low g seems oddly thick to me. just a fat tube.

all i can say is that i have a mack hoover high d, a feadog high d, and the others mentioned and the killarney is like picking up a finely tuned professional instrument and obviously improved in playability in every way. i can slide notes easier, half note easier, blow soft or loud without under or overblowing. it is perfectly tuned top to botton. it doesn't require the insane soft breath of the mack hoover quiet d, but it also doesn't require as much force as the shearwater g. the shearwater a is pretty good overall too. i like the way it plays and feels a lot, but it isn't tuneable. otherwise it's my second favorite.

so I'm not sure, but i think the killarney is probably medium in most of its attributes. back pressure, etc.? at least in my limited experience. so something similar would be what I'm after.

I'll have to look at my low d, but it's not too bad overall, but it's hard to get the lowest notes to sound good and even in tune as it requires so very little breath (almost none). i think it is also a hoover. they are amazing for quiet practicing. they're less than half the volume of my others. I'm not looking for loud. i prefer quieter in general, just not too quiet that it affects playability. killarney strikes the perfect balance there too...

lastly, i like the tone of the brass. i prefer a warmer whistle to a chirpier nickel style. and i prefer chiff? that isn't overly grating or raspy.

jerry, does all of this make any sense? is that something you might be able to make in a low g and perhaps even lower?

[luisdent]

I don't own a Kilarny, but do have 2 nice low 'G' whistles, an ABS & a Trad Brass, both by Tony Dixon - also 2 low 'F' whistles, Shearwater & MK, both aluminium.

None are overly loud, but all have good tone.

i looked for a dixon brass, but can't find any...

[Sedi]

The Dixon brass models have been discontinued. But the aluminium G model plays very similar. I have both.
Here's an older video of me playing it.
https://youtu.be/Y-yFK9liy6E

[pancelticpiper]

A standard bore whistle has a length to bore ratio typically between 22.0 and 23.0

For a high D whistle yes.

But we should keep in mind that the ideal ratio changes as the whistle gets longer.

To demonstrate, here are the ratios of great-playing whistles of various sizes:

D (Feadog) 23.3
C (Generation) 22.71
Bb (Generation) 24.8
mezzo G (Burke) 23.9
mezzo G (Reyburn) 26.7
mezzo F (Goldie) 24.99
Low E (Alba) 25.9
Low D (Goldie) 24.6
Low C (Goldie) 28.3
Bass A (Alba) 29.1

In other words, as the tube gets longer the bore doesn't maintain its proportion, but gets relatively narrower.

Organ builders, for a tube twice as long, only increase the bore by 2/3rds.

A maker who tries to maintain a High D ratio down into Low Whistles is Burke, and I feel that Burkes, for most of their sizes, have bores that are too big, giving shouty stiff high notes and a huge appetite for air.

[Jerry Freeman]

Interesting, Richard.

The laws of physics are giving me more leeway than I thought.

I'm measuring the length from the bottom of the tube to the top of the voicing window, what would be the "cork" if this were a flute headjoint. You're citing a D Feadog as having a length to bore ratio of 3.3. Measuring from the bottom of the tube to the "cork," I get a length to bore ratio of 22.7.

[pancelticpiper]

I measured from the cutting edge of the blade, where the sound is produced, to the open end.

I suppose because I conceived of that as being the "sounding length". Of course the cavity behind where the tone is produced has an effect too.

In the book Air Columns And Tone Holes (Bart Hopkin) he says

"Cylindrical tubes open at both ends:

This category includes unstopped flutes including fipple flutes, since the flute blow-hole or edge hole acts as an open end."

He has formulas for the required "end corrections" to be applied at both ends.

[luisdent]

bore holes and tube lengths are all fine and dandy, but does that mean i can or can't have a nice low g that isn't too thick? haha

[Jerry Freeman]

Richard, you wrote: "I measured from the cutting edge of the blade ... ."

According to flutopedia.com:

"The acoustic length of a flute sounding the fundamental note is half the wavelength of that note. However, the physical bore length (measured from the plug to the foot) is significantly shorter than the acoustic length." [my emphasis]

https://www.flutopedia.com/acoustic_length.htm

[Tunborough]

I'd be inclined to agree with Richard. It doesn't matter much for whistles, but for a flute, the headspace between the embouchure hole and the cork isn't part of the acoustic length. Exactly where in the window to start measuring is up in the air, but the sounding blade is as good as any other reference point.