Developing your playing style

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Mr.Gumby
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by Mr.Gumby »

The label you stick on them is less important. Traditional usage will put them under the header of ornamentation. But their function can vary from plain emphasis, articulation and separation and merge from the pure utilitarian to proper decoration, depending on use and placement. Best not to overthink the terminology too much. Better go concentrate on why that stuff is there and what you want to achieve by using it.
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fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity."
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by fiddlerwill »

Interesting question. How often do you find the same note repeated ? I think you will find you can play the great majority of tunes without tounging taps or cuts . Variation in
Phraseing is a universal musical skill .

The point is to develope these universal musical skills then build on them. So its a matter of principle are cuts and taps ornaments or articulations :-)
On some bagpipes its not possible to interupt the stream of notes and even then many if not most tunes can be played without these basic techniques .
To avoid becoming a generic player where its all icing and little cake i suggest to follow the advice in the first quote :

“The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity."
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.


Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by Mr.Gumby »

fiddlerwill wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:03 pm Interesting question. How often do you find the same note repeated ? I think you will find you can play the great majority of tunes without tounging taps or cuts . Variation in
Phraseing is a universal musical skill .
Well, actually there are quite a few instances where two notes of the same pitch require some form of separation. How you approach those is ofcourse an important element of style. There are choices to be made.

I am not so sure all that many tunes will work all that well without using some form of separation. As it happens, for some reason I found myself playing Joe Bane's version of the Morning Star earlier today. In itself a very simple tune fashioned by a player with a very plain style. Yet, he liked doubling up his notes and cuts are an integral part of how he made the tune work.
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fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity."
Location: Miltown Malbay

Re: Developing your playing style

Post by fiddlerwill »

Im Not saying they dont exist , but they are rare . The morning star is not one of them as far as im aware? Maybe its the particular setting?
Even if there are occasionally 2 notes the same, And im sure there are , a simple long note or replacement with a pause/ breath circumnavigates that.
My point is not to build a style without ornaments or cuts etc, its to avoid them in the first few years so as to develop basic universal musical skills applicable to every instrument in every genre, to develop a simple yet effective rhythmical and melodic style of playing Where the musical phrasing is the primary .

The problem IMO Is when the focus is on the unique aspects of an instrument, this supersedes the basics and as a result these basics dont develop because the player is already " advanced" . Hence ending up with a hundred players who are indistinguishable , all with immaculate technique and no soul. 20 years of practice with all the bells and trills can be hard to undo even temporarily so as to be able to focus on expression.
Indeed the rare individual can accomplish both despite but not because of the Focus on unique technical tricks and they do indeed stand out , and thats a pity really that not every player Has this ability, and its only a matter of focusing on the basics First.

Its counter intuitive but as the man says : "The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity."

I just love that ;-) it bears repeating .
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.


Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Mr.Gumby
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by Mr.Gumby »

m Not saying they dont exist , but they are rare . The morning star is not one of them as far as im aware? Maybe its the particular setting?
Even if there are occasionally 2 notes the same, And im sure there are , a simple long note or replacement with a pause/ breath circumnavigates that.
My point is not to build a style without ornaments or cuts etc, its to avoid them in the first few years so as to develop basic universal musical skills applicable to every instrument in every genre, to develop a simple yet effective rhythmical and melodic style of playing Where the musical phrasing is the primary .
Listen again to the clip you linked, Willie playing the Morning Dew and the Woman of the House, starting ~E3 B BAF--- and DBBA ~B respectively, notes in need of separation right from the start.

I took Joe Bane's Morning Star as my example not just because I happened to be playing that version earlier. Bane was perhaps the sort of musician you are putting forward here: relatively untutored, playing an extremely plain style. His music processed by his own mind and sense of musicality with a strong emphasis on rhtyhm and phrasing. But he liked to compress the range of his phrases and doing so the doubled up notes quite a bit and that particular element of style (not an uncommon one by any means) depends on using some form of separation of the doubled notes. Open your parachute Will, these things are tools that help musicians give shape to their phrases. While I agree there's an over emphasis on them in your average internet tutorial, leading to a bland uniformity of sorts, I don't think the basic stuff should be shunned but used to your advantage instead, that's what it's there for.
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by psoutowood »

Gary, certain lots to digest here and some great advice. One small thing is to think about the whistle as much as a rhythmic instrument as a melodic one. Some ornamentation is to make it easy to keep an eighth- or sixteenth-note rhythm going so your fingers will naturally cut and tap as needed (with lots of practice) to keep the drive of the tune moving. Good luck and have fun!

-Peter
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by ChrisLaughlin »

Seriously, just join the Online Academy of Irish Music, start from the beginning, and work your way through. You can thank me later. https://www.oaim.ie/
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fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity."
Location: Miltown Malbay

Re: Developing your playing style

Post by fiddlerwill »

Im all for cuts and taps, rolls and cranns, whatever works and is enjoyable, but for beginners i maintain a simple unadorned Approach is the best so as to focus on developing basic musical ability.
As regards the recording, yes thats a master at work. How he plays the tunes and how a beginner plays the tunes are worlds apart.
Trying to imitate a master, as a beginner .....maybe if you keep at it for a couple of decades you might superficially be able to copy well enough, but thats My point really , its not about copying soMeone else, its about developing your own style. Not by means of artifice but by organic , Patient holistic growth.
As it happens i did indeed spend many hours repeating and playing along with the second tune there, im still not sure how he gets the sound from the firSt note of the second tune! The whole idea of simplicity of approach is as a basic for complexity down the line and variations , personal touches, style. Isn't that the question!
The OP has some months of playing and is asking about ornaments.
Im a string player originally so there are no ornaments available basically apart from triplets.... so my whistle tunes were basically the same for many years . Im not a whistler , i just have a few tunes. So I speak from personal experience .
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.


Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by ChrisLaughlin »

I'm going to be direct. If you want to learn how to play Irish traditional music well, then you need to learn from someone who both plays it well and teaches it well - not by trying to figure it out yourself, and not from 99.9% of people here on Chiff & Fipple.

Unless you live near someone who is a professional Irish-trad musician and also a great teacher, by far the best thing you can do for yourself is to sign up for the Online Academy of Irish music, start at whistle lesson #1, and work your way through one by one until you become an expert.

This way, until of wandering around trying to figure it out yourself, and trying to learn from the people here, wasting time, and building bad habits, you will be guided through your learning in a systematic, methodical, logical progression by some of the most respected Irish traditional whistle and flute players and teachers in the world, doing it right from the start. Why would you do it any other way? https://www.oaim.ie/
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Different people learn in different ways, remember that. You will have to find the way that best suits you. Some of the finest traditional musicians I know never saw a teacher. You do need the presence of and interaction with other musicians, well grounded in 'the tradition'.
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity."
Location: Miltown Malbay

Re: Developing your playing style

Post by fiddlerwill »

Theres another issue with commercial organisations and teachers; if they dont provide what the student thinks they want, the student goes elsewhere until he finds what he thinks he wants. Hence pressure upon commercial providers to teach not what is actually best for a students development, but obliged to cater for the perceived best. Which could be diametrically opposed to what is actually best and even how the teacher/ learnt themselves...
Hence the online idea that seems so prevalent is that its all in the ornaments , all in the tricks and adornments, that its the gold chains that make a person rich, but actually the gold comes from the richness.....not the other way round, if you get my drift. And its then easy to have a gold plated silver chain and pass for the reel thing to the uninitiated , or even a plastic goldy looking chain!
Im not saying this in about the OAIM , but it does seem prevalent in many organisations and i would certainly be aware of the pitfalls.
People forever search for short cuts , they wish to arrive without taking the journey. If you tell them, well its 7 years ,then another 7 and then another 7 ...... but the guy next door says, sure 2x a week for 2 years ..... where will they go......

If you tell them its 21 years for that gold chain, and next door its 2 years for a gold plated silver chain, whos to know the difference.....
So personally , considering this, and its the same in many fields , i dont recommend learning from people and organisations where there is financial pressure to succeed . Better an amateur who gives you the real thing to a professional who gives you the appearance of the real thing..
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.


Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by Sedi »

Do people really claim "it's all in the ornaments"? Honestly, I never heard that.
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I was wondering if there are songs that should be left bare. Slow airs come to mind when I say about being left alone (obviously not all slow airs)
Reading back this thread the above struck me as something that wasn't really responded to. For slow airs the common advice is to take your cues from singers. Singers will more often than not decorate their melodies. Sean nos singers will usually have a fair amount of ornamentation going. Perhaps 'modern' singers, much like instrumentalists, have a far more conscious, and arguably more predictable, way of ornamenting their tunes. If you listen to older singers, they were adlibbing and making things up on the fly in a perhaps, far more natural way. Modern singers can sound, as someone put it, 'like they were taught'. But whatever way you choose to go, the key to your slow airs lies with the singers. Play your air like the singer sings it and you'll be flying it.
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity."
Location: Miltown Malbay

Re: Developing your playing style

Post by fiddlerwill »

I couldnt agree more with mr Gumby , but the advice holds for all music . Obviously some is outside the possibility of singing , but basically its of universal application.
But what does that mean ? Play as if your singing?
Well there is obviously emotion , but how does one actually instill emotion into a piece of music ...
frankly its on a deeper level than technique ,its about transmitting the feeling you have energetically. So if your bored of a tune .... thats what the audience will receive ... so its partly about self control , controling your own emotional state .
So once you are fully absorbed and excited by the music , this is what is transmitted how? No idea , could be subliminal, chemical , micro expressions etc that are unconsciously sent and unconsciously received .
But at a basic technical level there are fundamentals you can work on; your phraseing .
A singer. Im one, Will phrase the song in numerous ways . Obviously the verse will ,due to the lyrics changing , have a natural phraseing but the chorus can be varied each time through subtle changes in emphasis on words and rests .
So i suggest learning tunes from singers ,nothing about ornaments again, these will develope as you develope , but concentrating on melody and phraseing so find a good singer , and pick up song melodies from them. Say ..Dick Gaughan i dunno , Christy Moore . Whatevet floats your boat . Any genre really ,but sticking to the genre ; Sinead , Mary Black , traditional yet not too complex, Sean nós is a very highly advanced style so id suggest something simpler .
This for me is the ultimate.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFRCWg_kOc but you can find the same song in many formats so try them all maybe ....
the simple melody of a tune is deceptive , the depth and breadth and detail is something again. For example try slowing this down....

Its not about technique, not to disparage technique , but its merely the tool , its what you do WITH the technique that matters ....
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.


Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;

http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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Re: Developing your playing style

Post by Gary90 »

I had not logged in for a couple of days.

Plenty of useful info has been posted here, and has actually changed my outlook of the trying to "develop a particular style".
Especially when playing using emotion was mentioned, now that I have thought about that, it makes so much sense.

It's easy for a beginner like me, to get caught up in the ",your not good untill you can play rolls at lightening speed" mindset which seems to be far from the truth.
But it would be nice to be able to do that :lol:
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