Chiff and Fipple Forums

Hi all,

I am need of a good Bb whistle, I'm based in the UK, but have no problem with buying from overseas, well other than the crazy VAT and Duty charges, but that's Life.
so am particulary interested in a Sindt, or an Abell, or similar, let me know if you have a Bb you are willing to sell, also have a reasonable budget, so not after a cheapo

thanks Sponge

I had a Sindt Bb, but in truth as good as it was I preferred my Jerry Freeman Generation Bb just a tad more.

And the Freeman is a fraction of the price.

My Freeman Bb isn't for sale (it's the best Bb I've ever played) but it might be worthwhile to consider casting your net a bit wider, to include the Freeman.

Hi pancelticpiper, I have an old Gen Bb, which is very chiffy, well extremely chiffy, so I did consider one of Jerry's, but bigwhistle in the UK has not had them for a while.
So I thought I'd try my luck at tempting someone to sell a used hand made model, but like most things, when the budget is good to go, the instruments are in short supply,

The search continues, thanks for the advice though

Sponge

I got one from here - Erne music supplies looks like a Killarney rip off, but it is pretty sturdy.

David

I've been thinking about the topic of cheap vs high end a lot. I bought a Burke A recently to compare it to the ones I've made. And then I bought a nightingale A to compare to my Burke. And both have pros and cons. My general thought is that while what people like is preference, the high end makers are great at doing their specific traits, and usually have more time put into fine tuning their recipe. My nightingale really isnt bad. But the headpiece is made for a B or Bb. On the A its way too soft blowing, and the G would be even softer. I can easily see each Nightingale key playing differently (the mouth piece isnt different for each key). Where Burke Goldie and MK I believe are more consistent across keys, because each one is a fine tuned recipe. This is one of the things you pay for from high cost makers. Is it worth it, depends.

And another thing I've noticed, is that I've seen tons of people who have tried many whistle makers, settle on the same few, like Goldie, MK or Burke (for low whistles, high whistles add in Sindt and Killarney). One would think that if so many people have tried multiple and settle on these, it means they do better at what they do than the competition. Maybe only by a small margin, but if money isnt a factor, 1% better is still better.

But the fact that I'm still trying to decide which one to keep is a great point for keeping lower cost options in mind. If it plays how you want, it doesnt matter how much it costs. The $70 Nightingale still has some benefits over the $280 Burke (I'd say the Burke has more total benefits but my point is the nightingale still ahs some of its own).

My abridged 2 cents, is that getting a high end whistle is totally fine, if it has the traits you want, or at least has the most things you like. Finding the 'perfect' one seems really hard. But if your perfect whistle is cheaper, go with that one.

And on a related topic, you could give your whistle preferences and we could give opinions on what you are most likely to like. But preference can always change. Nothing gives better information than trying one out. worst case scenario you sell it. Which was my plan when I bought mine haha.

BigDavy wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 3:17 pmlooks like a Killarney rip off

Oh, the irony ....

ecadre wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:57 pm

BigDavy wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 3:17 pmlooks like a Killarney rip off

Oh, the irony ....

I got one from here - Erne music supplies

That particular bandwagon must be creaking at the seams at this point. Every man and his dog seem to be at it. In all fairness, and all irony aside, they look well made and priced reasonably enough, aside from the postage from the UK. My son will be in Enniskillen tomorrow and he may have a look for me although I told him I don't need a Bb whistle and am well enough set up for the few other keys I do need.

Looks like the ususal Sindt-rip-offs. Mine (will not mention names, last time the makers even bothered to contact me by email -- not to my amusement) still smells like gasoline (the pouch stank even worse), the material of the head was certainly not delrin and the tube had scratches all over. Tuning and playing was okay though. The "crafsmanship", if you can even call it that, left a lot to be desired. And I'll never stick this smelly mouthpiece in my mouth again. It dropped to the floor anyway and the plastic part split. Never bothered to repair it.

sponge wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 7:13 am Hi all,

I am need of a good Bb whistle, I'm based in the UK, but have no problem with buying from overseas, well other than the crazy VAT and Duty charges, but that's Life.
so am particulary interested in a Sindt, or an Abell, or similar, let me know if you have a Bb you are willing to sell, also have a reasonable budget, so not after a cheapo

thanks Sponge

I would recommend a tweaked Bb from Jerry Freeman. I don't have a Freeman Bb but i orderd a generation D from him last month and received it no bother (I live in Belfast).

Jerry is tweaking whistles again, drop him an e-mail, atleast you know your getting a good whistle from him.

Narzog wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:51 pm a Burke A...a nightingale A to compare to my Burke... the nightingale really isn't bad, but the headpiece is made for a B or Bb. On the A its way too soft blowing, and the G would be even softer.

The only Nightingales I've seen are the Low C, D, Eb, E, and F which all use the same Low D tubing (the maker helpfully stating the diameter of his whistles) which of course gives the opposite problem with the F. I've not seen his high whistles, of course he would have small tubing for those.

My home-made A uses a Freeman Generation Bb top and it plays great, but it is soft-blowing, which I like.

For me the Burke A, like all the Burkes I've owned (High D, Low D, and several between) was too stiff in the 2nd octave and gobbled up way too much air.

Narzog wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:51 pm Burke, Goldie, and MK I believe are more consistent across keys, because each one is a fine tuned recipe.

Yes with Burkes it seems that each size uses dedicated tubing to create the voicing/performance Michael wants, unlike most makers who have fewer tubing sizes than whistle sizes. These makers might use either the size above or the size below for the in-between keys.

Colin Goldie is like that, therefore he makes his G with both the F tubing and the A tubing. Likewise Albas in the same key might be seen with quite different tubing sizes.

Narzog wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:51 pm Finding the 'perfect' one seems really hard.

I've become convinced that there's no such thing, that all whistles especially Low Whistles are bundles of compromises, and each player has to decide which shortcomings he can live with.

Narzog wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:51 pm high end makers...usually have more time put into fine tuning their recipe.

Yes that makes sense.

But what if the recipe isn't to your taste? Or what if the recipe just isn't very good?

Though not the same, it's analogous to a debate that goes on about the many Highland pipe makers. People will go on and on about the one-man-shop pipemaker, the gnarled ancient man using a treadle-lathe in his dark cramped shop, ankle-deep in wood dust, his gnarled ancient hands playing over the living wood, sensing the idiosyncrasies, nay, the spirit, within.

As opposed to the bright modern shop in a bright modern Industrial Estate bustling with bright young workers at their gleaming new CNC machines, grabbing the pre-cut wood they get from a jobber, popping it in, the chips flying, and pouring out 40 sets of pipes a week.

The fully handcrafted pipe must play better, no? Oftentimes, no, not if the hand-made pipe was made to mediocre specs and the CNC-made pipe was made to superb specs. Because the bore of an instrument's ID and length is what it is regardless of how it got that way, and the sound of a bagpipe is almost entirely created by the internal specs.

In like manner whether a whistle's fipple was meticulously handcrafted out of fabulously expensive exotic hardwood or mass-produced by injection moulding from cheap plastic matters little; what's important is the design, the specs.

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 8:15 am For me the Burke A, like all the Burkes I've owned (High D, Low D, and several between) was too stiff in the 2nd octave and gobbled up way too much air.

I feel like the second octave requires some push but is really crisp and clean which makes me still like its second octave.

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 8:15 am I've become convinced that there's no such thing, that all whistles especially Low Whistles are bundles of compromises, and each player has to decide which shortcomings he can live with.

Ya this is why my whistle quest haven't ended yet. I like my burke. But I still feel compelled to try others. I really like its intonation and its tone (I don't like the super trad sound like Gen's). but the air use is definately a con, and I'd prefer it to need slightly less push while not becoming too soft blowing.

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 8:15 am But what if the recipe isn't to your taste? Or what if the recipe just isn't very good?

This is 100% true. If someone wants a soft blower with low air use they wont like a Burke. But if they dont know what they want and just want something that they know is professional quality to learn to master playing, they cant go wrong with Goldie/Burke/MK. Theres other makers they could have ended up liking more but I feel like at least for low whistles the big 3 seem to have a lot of fans.

I'm always torn between how much to care about preference. Like Burke for example. I could complain that it uses too much air. Or I could just decide that tons of professional players play Burkes and learn to like its traits. Because how much of preference is really my preference, and how much is just what I'm used to playing (like my dislike for soft blowing. If I had to play my nightingale I'd get used to it and appreciate its benefits)?

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 8:15 am Though not the same, it's analogous to a debate that goes on about the many Highland pipe makers. People will go on and on about the one-man-shop pipemaker, the gnarled ancient man using a treadle-lathe in his dark cramped shop, ankle-deep in wood dust, his gnarled ancient hands playing over the living wood, sensing the idiosyncrasies, nay, the spirit, within.

As opposed to the bright modern shop in a bright modern Industrial Estate bustling with bright young workers at their gleaming new CNC machines, grabbing the pre-cut wood they get from a jobber, popping it in, the chips flying, and pouring out 40 sets of pipes a week.

The fully handcrafted pipe must play better, no? Oftentimes, no, not if the hand-made pipe was made to mediocre specs and the CNC-made pipe was made to superb specs. Because the bore of an instrument's ID and length is what it is regardless of how it got that way, and the sound of a bagpipe is almost entirely created by the internal specs.

In like manner whether a whistle's fipple was meticulously handcrafted out of fabulously expensive exotic hardwood or mass-produced by injection moulding from cheap plastic matters little; what's important is the design, the specs.

I agree, In most cases hand made doesnt mean much besides a higher price tag. I've taken a break from whistle crafting but when I did at the end I used a desktop CNC to make my holes. I've seen a video of a flute maker doing the same. Theres not much difference between following dimensions in your workshop and machinists following the same plans and creating bulk. I wish there were more mass produced whistles. While I'm not a huge fan of dixon's and my nightingale A, that doesnt make mass production bad. I'm just not a fan of those recipes. I'm interested in trying one of the new Kerry Busker F's. It says the price is cheaper due to having a shorter windway, but I think thats just to cover up that he lowered the price to compete with Nightingale. While I've heard of inconsistencies between Kerry whistles, they are much cheaper than say Burke, and I always liked the sound of the thunderbird F.

The mass produced nightingale has less smooth holes than the burke and isnt as shiny, but those could easily be added into the production process to make it even closer in quality, without raising the price that much most likely.

As everyone has probably seen Jerry Freeman is offering a wide range of Generation whistles.

He's offering the sweet pure voicing which is the vintage Generation style I like.

That's how my Freeman Generation Bb is, it's wonderful and the best Bb I've owned, a hair better than the Sindt Bb I had. The Sindt sets the bar very high indeed! But for me the Freeman has a slight edge over it.

I took that Freeman Generation Bb on tour, every note exactly in tune, so I could just play the music and not have to think about making adjustments for a less-than-perfect whistle. I really marvel at how Jerry gets such precise intonation out of those Generations.