What's new in whistles?

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MadmanWithaWhistle
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Re: What's new in whistles?

Post by MadmanWithaWhistle »

Narzog wrote:I'm hand cutting the windways, but milling would be 100x better haha. I just havent found a budget mill and it doesnt currently fit into my budget. With every attempt I find a less bad way to cut the windway, so some day I'll be able to do it quickly by hand at least. Technically I've been using Acetal not Delrin, which is what comes up 99% of the time you google to buy Delrin. So most people just call Acetal Delrin. But it also shouldn't stick to adhesives but I actually found it sticks to PC Clear epoxy. Which even though they say is 'non toxic when cured' I still dont trust it enough to put it in my mouth haha.

One of my issues with trying to make an over tube design is my ability to make the over tube. My aluminum alto tube I bought perfectly fits tighly in holes drilled by my 3/4 bit. But all the other tubes I have fit loosely with my closet fitting bits. A similar thing I thought of though is to make a recorder block (like the one here if u scroll down in this link http://www.flute-a-bec.com/bouchongb.html). This way I can drill a hole to fit it in, and just file a windway up. And then I can file up the lip of needed to get the locations correct. This might be too much effort though, not sure. My current method of making a solid mouthpiece and creating the windway by cutting a piece off is super easy. If it doesnt seal perfect on my tube I can just use plumbing tape. And then I dont need to worry about assorted tube fitment because the inside is just 2 different hole sizes (the tube size and a slightly smaller one to file the windway up into), and filing a straight lip. The issue there is my issue of attaching the top without it looking stupid haha.

My tools are pretty limiting. I have a cheap junk harbor freight belt sander and drill press. An old dremel with tungsten engraving bits that I cut the base windways with (which actually works really well with some practice). And some assorted hand saws and stuff. I did just get a Turncrafter Commander midi lathe, but the drill chuck and chisels it was supposed to come with are on backorder so I get to wait a while. It is a wood lathe so its not going to be perfect for outside precision work. but I think it should do well for drilling perfect centered holes (better than my drill press which I always drill slightly off), and it can save time on trimming the outsides and being symmetrical. And making tuning slides significantly better than my belt sander.
Wow!
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Terry McGee
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Re: What's new in whistles?

Post by Terry McGee »

MadmanWithaWhistle wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:09 am Edit: you mentioned the “three tube” method of mouthpiece construction - it’s very commonly used because it’s the simplest way to make a playable whistle head with common subtractive shop equipment.
You had me puzzled with this descriptor. Are we talking the modern style of whistle, the "three tubes" being:
- the body tube, with its 6 holes
- the head tube, slotted to form the sides of the windway, and
- the tube forming the windway cover?

If so, perhaps we should call it the “three tubes, plug and pin" approach? The plug forming the curved floor of the windway, and the pin through holding the head together. Or does it already have a well-established name?

Or are you seeing the head body as three tubes in series:
- the stopper end, with its outer diameter reduced to accommodate the cover
- the middle section, at full OD, and
- the far end, with full OD but ID increased to accept the body tube?

And if not either of these, what three tubes are we talking about?
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MadmanWithaWhistle
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Re: What's new in whistles?

Post by MadmanWithaWhistle »

Terry McGee wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:29 pm
MadmanWithaWhistle wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:09 am Edit: you mentioned the “three tube” method of mouthpiece construction - it’s very commonly used because it’s the simplest way to make a playable whistle head with common subtractive shop equipment.
You had me puzzled with this descriptor. Are we talking the modern style of whistle, the "three tubes" being:
- the body tube, with its 6 holes
- the head tube, slotted to form the sides of the windway, and
- the tube forming the windway cover?

If so, perhaps we should call it the “three tubes, plug and pin" approach? The plug forming the curved floor of the windway, and the pin through holding the head together. Or does it already have a well-established name?

Or are you seeing the head body as three tubes in series:
- the stopper end, with its outer diameter reduced to accommodate the cover
- the middle section, at full OD, and
- the far end, with full OD but ID increased to accept the body tube?

And if not either of these, what three tubes are we talking about?
Lazy terminology on my part; I think the second description is what I meant. "Three cylinder method" is probably more accurate; I'm referring to the fact that it's easy to produce a reasonably functional whistle with minimal tooling if you have a rod (the plug), a tube with reasonably thick walls which the rod fits into (the middle section and possibly tonebody, if not tuneable), and a third tube into which the second fits snugly (the outer cover forming the windway ceiling.

I think my point, if I recall correctly, is that in my experience whistles built this way share some common characteristics, particularly concerning the attack or "chiff" of the notes.
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Terry McGee
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Re: What's new in whistles?

Post by Terry McGee »

Thanks for that clarification, MadmanWithaWhistle. I'm interested in your final comment:
"I think my point, if I recall correctly, is that in my experience whistles built this way share some common characteristics, particularly concerning the attack or "chiff" of the notes."
I think I am experiencing what you are referring to. Do we think that such heads inevitably give a brighter, chiffier tone than say the older plastic heads with the flat windway and blade? Or does that depend on the fine details such as the relative height of windway floor and blade?

If the sound is intrinsically determined by the geometry of curved vs flat windways, can anyone tell us why?

I am reminded back in my callow youth, playing baroque music on recorder (I was such a wild lad!), of the marked differences between the agile European thin curved windways and the bold Dolmetsch flat fat windways. But a very different aesthetic is at play there.

(I visited the Dolmetsch factory in Haslemere back in 1974. It was another step in my subsequent downfall, for which I am eternally grateful.)
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MadmanWithaWhistle
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Re: What's new in whistles?

Post by MadmanWithaWhistle »

Hi Terry, sorry for the delay in responding - quite the opposite in fact. I find that curved windways corresponding to the curvature of the bore have less chiff and attack, but sound sweeter and are more stable. However, if you lock the geometry of the airblade, you really only have a few variables to play with, like window width/length/depth, and airblade angle, which in a three-cylinder design based around a bore of 0.5"-ish are not really capable of changing the tone that much, more the playing characteristics and octave tuning.

Key to my design are changes in the angle of the airstream, the curvature of the airblade corresponding to a circle some multiple of the bore, the undercut on the airblade, and the total length of the airblade, which protrudes beyond the outer diameter of the head like Generation. These are all possible to achieve with the three cylinder method and some clever machining, but would be quite a pain unless you were determined to experiment with these variables. Since you can make a working whistle without any of this trouble, most people don't bother to. I chose to experiment with these because I was in pursuit of a crisper, more vintage sound inspired by what I like about my dad's 1977 Generation.

I couldn't tell you precisely *why* these changes affect the tone the way they do, but I have some guesses. I find it much more helpful to think in terms of air flow than acoustics when designing whistles and flutes, so a lot of my rationale is manipulating either the air jet, the entrained air, or the shed vortices from the airblade.



It's interesting you mention recorder, as I did a lot of research on medieval and early recorders when developing my design, particularly for how to scale each feature across the keys! Fascinating instruments, all.
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