curved or straight - that is the question..

rbm · Post by **rbm** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:24 am

This is aimed at the whistlesmiths out there in chiff'n'fippleland, what are the pros and cons of curved blades or straight blades, or is there no actual difference?

it has to be said I have never made or played a curved blade.

Cheers Richard.

Groovehead · Post by **Groovehead** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:44 am

I have done both now. The newest whistle that I've built has a curved blade and a matching curved windway. I can't tell a lot of difference in tone, but there is a pronounced difference in volume.

This whistle is also using a delrin fipple plug instead of wood so that may be contributing to the volume increase as well... I'm not sure.

MarkB · Post by **MarkB** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:35 am

A question posed to Monica Lewinski.

Did I win!

MarkB

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:43 am

It may be mostly a question of manufacturing more than colour of the sound.

My two-megs :
Curved blade may make manufacturing easier, especially on a lathe.
The plug-in-tube-in-sleeve design of round windway (Sindt, Grinter come to my mind) is easy to manufacture.
The tube-hammered-square (Overton) may have the advantage of reducing the initial surface of the bore (just after the blade).

And I personnally tend to find a curved mouthpiece more comfy, but I never "chew" on it as some do...

rbm · Post by **rbm** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:08 am

On 2003-02-20 09:43, Zubivka wrote:
It may be mostly a question of manufacturing more than colour of the sound.

My two-megs :
Curved blade may make manufacturing easier, especially on a lathe.
The plug-in-tube-in-sleeve design of round windway (Sindt, Grinter come to my mind) is easy to manufacture.
The tube-hammered-square (Overton) may have the advantage of reducing the initial surface of the bore (just after the blade).

And I personnally tend to find a curved mouthpiece more comfy, but I never "chew" on it as some do...

Ah zoobie-pie you've seen the reasoning behind the question, its easier to make the revesed taper as a cone, which would give a curved blade, but if curved blades were not as good, then I'd have to go a pyramidal (?) revesed taper blending into the tube at the 1st joint giving a flat blade but harder to make.
Richard.

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:24 am

Well, the blade has to match the windway for the whistle to work. A curved windway is thought to be less prone to clogging by some of the makers. Which is easier to make depends on the method of manufacture. Plastic could be molded either way just as easily, and a quick survey of my plastic mouthpieces shows that all have straight windways and blades, including Waltons, Sweetone, Meg and Dixon.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:33 am

Richard;
I understand it's wood you're after, hence mostly lathed so I'd go rounded windway.
If you were an whistlesmith in the litteral sense then there's a lot to say for the tube hammered square.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong to fear about rounded windways. There's nothing principially wrong with them as prove so many with so differently coloured sounds: To Grinter, Sindt, I could have added Susato (probably the initiator of the modern curved wide blade) and not forgotten Copeland, even if this is more a smithed than machined whistle. This are only a few, but none known as failures, right ?
Come to think of it, flat blades seem to be getting a near-exception in the high end. They're either inspired by the original "recorder" design (narrow blade filed flat) or the very original full-width of a square Overton design.
All the powerful whistles seem to have but one thing in common : an extremely wide (if short lengthwise) blade, up to almost 1/4 of the circumference of the tube at this level.
To me it's the most obvious departure, beside bore, from the traditional recorder.

So you got a free choice, mate : the roccoco pansywood design of the ancestor, or our modern industrial "heavy-metal" whistle with its postmodern avatar the cocobolo "hot-lips" whistle.
Just tell us what side you chose

bodhrans · Post by **bodhrans** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:05 pm

I think that very often it may be a function of the whistle makers tooling and production requirements. Whistles made from preformed tube with a flat blade can be manufactured with a press and a minimal number of operations, whereas making a curved airway involves use of a lathe and precision machining on more separate individual parts per whistle. With the flat blade, the precision machining is most necessary on the original dye from which many whistles are made, hence considerably cheaper production.

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:34 am

Mine have curved windway and fipple. This is largely due to the way these whistles are made-- first I make a wooden tube, and work from that. Due to the nature of the head joint, the surfaces in question come out curved. The bottom of the blade is simply the inside of the tube, the top of the fipple matches that, etc.
From what I've read on whistle type sound producing heads, a curved windway has an advantage due to the physics of airflow. Unless you make a square whistle ( why not?), it's better to have a curved sheet of air impacting a curved blade as these parallel the round cross section of the whistle. With a flat windway, there are apparently inefficiencies in the laminar air flow ( gee, it almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about....).

rbm · Post by **rbm** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:17 am

The reasoning is so I can integrate a Boehm revesed taper into the whistle, As the wood for my low d is now resting, I bit the bullet last night and introduced a reversed taper into a copper whistle, cut/shut and solder to give me a 1/10 reduction in tube diameter tapered over 1/6 of the total length of the whistle from the blade.

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:28 am

And soooo ?

What's the result ?

rbm · Post by **rbm** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:26 pm

err...... it works!!

Reyburnwhistles · Post by **Reyburnwhistles** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:06 pm

I've got to agree with Zubivka, Bodrans and Brewerpaul. Its really a matter of the easiest way to make the fipple. I'm using a flat airway and blade on my Low whistles (in wood) and a curved airway and blade on the high whistles (Delrin). Its really not the shape of the airway that is the main concern here, but the fact that the airway is a metering duct that allows for a precise amount of air to pass thru. I have found that I prefer a fairly focused vertical distance of the airway to give a specific back pressure, which brings out the overtones, and then adjust the width to balance the upper and lower octaves and adjust the total volume of the instrument.

If you are working in wood, then there is another factor (if you are using a flat blade) and that is the transition from the blade to the cylindrical bore of the body. This undercut (which puts drag and resistance on the airflow) affects the tonal quality of the instrument. Of course if you are bending metal then the dynamic of the airflow is something very different and so is the tone.

There are a lot of ways to skin this cat and thats why there are soooo many different sounds in whistles.

Ronaldo

[ This Message was edited by: reyburnwhistles on 2003-02-21 17:30 ]

mike.r · Post by **mike.r** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:39 am

On 2003-02-20 10:24, jim_mc wrote:
Well, the blade has to match the windway for the whistle to work.

Not so...I have converted my Susato to have flat blade instead of curved.Not only does it work with a non-matching curved windway,it sounds great as well.

Mike

McHaffie · Post by **McHaffie** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:22 am

Well, (ya I know... deep subject

) I use an odd combo that I think sounds quite nice... the airway on mine consists of a plug with a flat, that is machined and sanded, and is inside a round fitting. Sort of looks like (| (on it's side)

The blade however, is simply an angle sanded into the tube that the mouthpiece slides onto, so in effect there is a half-flat, curved blade combo that works rather well in my opinion. The blade ends up being curved "with the tubing" but also curved "away from the mouthpiece". try cutting or sanding an angle into the end of a piece of tubing, and you'll see what I mean.

It may be more temperamental to get it just right or something, but I don't think so. Also it allows the nifty adjustable volume principle.

Adjusting the volume however, creates a difference in chiff.. the more normal or quiter you go, the more easy-solid the sound is. The louder or more 'open' you go, the more chiff you get... If you have good lungs though, you can get it to be more solid if you have it opened up!!

I'm used to playing it louder to get through a large session w/ many instruments, and playing with the local Celtic Society's Bag Piper!

Take care,
John

EDITED for children, small animals, and general information that is still somewhat weird to try and explain.

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[ This Message was edited by: McHaffie on 2003-02-22 11:30 ]