A bad Generation vs a good Generation

[emtor]

Regarding the Chieftain - Did you talk to Phil about it?

Nope . . . I think I might fix it myself. Other than the flat C# it's a great whistle.

[DreamOgreen]

Peter Laban wrote:

None of the posters tried to Identify the designer whistles from the 'chalk on the blackboard' whistles. I posted for the Christmas entertainment. And I bet they wouldn't have managed either.

Yes Peter, not everyone tried to guess. Your thread, like this one was great fun and did bring up some worthwhile discussion, but proved little. (in my opinion) Not saying that you were trying to "prove" anything though... I make this statement because of the following...

A -Notice that on the clip posted by James, he paused a moment on certain notes. These were the notes where the awful tone of the bad generation was most apparent. One could hear a difference on the faster paced notes as well, but they stood out less. On your clips Peter, the tunes were all played at normal fast tempo. This presents the most difficult situation to differentiate subtle tone differences.

B -I am no sound expert and lack any kind of descent recording equipment, but I have recorded my whistles on to an old cassette recorder I have. It was striking to me how poorly some of the subtle 'scratchiness' or 'breathiness' is picked up on the recording.(or is lost on the playback) Add to the recording losses the fact that we are listening to the clips with little computer speakers. Once again less than ideal circumstances for telling one whistle from another.

C- It is generally agreed that a 'good' Generation can be a nice whistle indeed. I accept as fact that some of the whistles in the clips were bought at random. However as someone pointed out. The chance of having an off the shelf, non-chosen whistle sound descent is around 85%. It's not suprising that the clips all had a lot of similarity regardless of whistle, especially when played with the obvious skill that you have.

To summarise,
Most people can hear subtle differences in tone with their own ears while playing alone that never come thru in a recording.
Also, not everyone is even fond of the faster paced Jigs and Reels (fine music though that it is). It is the Slow Aires, Waltses and other slow stuff where one will really notice the 'clunker'.

The small odds of getting a dud does not keep us all from buying Gens, Feadogs and other cheapies... Many of them turn out to be nice whistles and at their prices, we can't complain much.

[Bloomfield]

Peter Laban wrote:

None of the posters tried to Identify the designer whistles from the 'chalk on the blackboard' whistles. I posted for the Christmas entertainment. And I bet they wouldn't have managed either.

Yes Peter, not everyone tried to guess. Your thread, like this one was great fun and did bring up some worthwhile discussion, but proved little. (in my opinion) Not saying that you were trying to "prove" anything though... I make this statement because of the following...

A -Notice that on the clip posted by James, he paused a moment on certain notes. These were the notes where the awful tone of the bad generation was most apparent. One could hear a difference on the faster paced notes as well, but they stood out less. On your clips Peter, the tunes were all played at normal fast tempo. This presents the most difficult situation to differentiate subtle tone differences.

I don't think so, since playing at tempo makes under or overblowing particular notes harder.

B -I am no sound expert and lack any kind of descent recording equipment, but I have recorded my whistles on to an old cassette recorder I have. It was striking to me how poorly some of the subtle 'scratchiness' or 'breathiness' is picked up on the recording.(or is lost on the playback) Add to the recording losses the fact that we are listening to the clips with little computer speakers. Once again less than ideal circumstances for telling one whistle from another.

C- It is generally agreed that a 'good' Generation can be a nice whistle indeed. I accept as fact that some of the whistles in the clips were bought at random. However as someone pointed out. The chance of having an off the shelf, non-chosen whistle sound descent is around 85%. It's not suprising that the clips all had a lot of similarity regardless of whistle, especially when played with the obvious skill that you have.

To summarise,
Most people can hear subtle differences in tone with their own ears while playing alone that never come thru in a recording.
Also, not everyone is even fond of the faster paced Jigs and Reels (fine music though that it is). It is the Slow Aires, Waltses and other slow stuff where one will really notice the 'clunker'.

I disagree - that's where you can correct more. And whistles generally sound different to the listener than they do to the player. Which does not mean that differences in sound can't be discerned.

If you say that the chance of getting a good cheapo is 85%, why should anyone pay 10 times the money for a designer whistle? I doubt the chance of getting a good one is any greater for all but a very few designer whistle makers.

[Wanderer]

If you say that the chance of getting a good cheapo is 85%, why should anyone pay 10 times the money for a designer whistle? I doubt the chance of getting a good one is any greater for all but a very few designer whistle makers.

Maybe ecause they like the tone. Or the volume. Or the playing characteristcs like breath requirements. These particular things seem to be forgotten a lot in this particular debate, it seems.

There's no doubt Peter can play a Generation with skill. There's also no doubt that I don't like the way Generations sound, usually. I don't like the way they play, usually, either.

So, which is more wasteful? Spending $200 on a whistle I'm pretty sure I'll love, or spending $5.00 on a whistle I'm pretty sure I won't?

[eskin]

I love my generation b-flat because it smells like bubble gum ever since I filled the fipple with used gum to pull in the octaves. Couldn't tell you offhand how it plays, but I know I love the way it smells.

Who's to say why we like what we like, the only thing I can say for sure is that I've never met a whistle that sounded on a recording like it did in my head when I played it live.

I don't particularly enjoy playing live the whistles I have that sound best recorded and vice versa, I'd probably not record on the whistle I prefer to play in sessions.

As far as I can tell everyone is right. Peter demonstrates that some people can't tell recorded whistles apart, great. Someone else claims that not all generations are created equally, that's also been my experience. Others have some issue with how much money we spend on our toys. Well, to those folks, mind your own business. If I want to spend $5000 to buy 10 Copeland sterling silver high Ds to pick the best one and then toss the rest in the trash, that's capitalism at its very best.

[DreamOgreen]

Bloomfield mentions: (in reference to my comment on playing at speed in reference to perception of tone)

I don't think so, because playing at tempo makes under or overblowing of particular notes harder

I agree with Bloomfield that it is harder to play with good pitch and tone at tempo. That is at the heart of the debate though is it not?
An accomplished player will give the right technique and breath pressure to get the best tone even at speed.
If one looks at an average player who might buy a Generation, they might be a little off on the breath pressure for best pitch and tone because of inexperience. On a fast passage the difference is not as obvious. If he/she were to play a held note or a slow passage they might have the time to correct the breath pressure for a good tone or pitch, but if the base tone of the whistle is poor to start with, than no amount of good technique will make that long held note sound pleasant.

As far as the differences in tone sounding more obvious to the listener than to the player.... I don't know. I personally haven't played with enough other people to agree or dis-agree. I can only say that I can certainly tell the tonal difference easily between a scratchy whistle and ones like the Humphrey or Hoovers that I have that have a purer tone. I find it harder to tell apart the different tonal qualities by hearing clips.... Mabey others might have an opinion here.
Still the debate is a interesting one to be sure....

[CranberryDog]

I would buy a burger from Mitch; but, not from the "usual suspects".

Cheers to the living
Cyril

[Stick-x]

... (the bit I didn't read)

If you say that the chance of getting a good cheapo is 85%, why should anyone pay 10 times the money for a designer whistle? I doubt the chance of getting a good one is any greater for all but a very few designer whistle makers.

Yes, Bloo - cheapies can be such fun, you know - specially the sweet ones, although, 85% seems a tad optomistic all that plastic and laquer, you know ... policemen, alegations .. let me tell you, the notes were all hundreds

For myself, I'd rather cuddle up to a wonderful slinky Overton. Such pedigree!

But, as you might understand, my absolute favorite is a nice little wooden number. They are soooo sophisticated and can hold a decent conversation at the best limo party. Their little complications only make me whisper to my goon "Are we being followed? Faster goon! And stop peeking!!!";)

Although ... There was one little Gen ... once .. *sigh* - she got raffled and, sadly, I never saw her again.

Meditation time! Anyone got some Bolly? Chivas???

[Cayden]

Yes Peter, not everyone tried to guess

Obviously the intention was to have people NOT guessing but give an informed opinion based on what they heard.

If the differences are as pronounced (between low cost mass produced vs designer) it would have been easy to at least say: 'that one is brilliant, that's the Sindt' or 'that one is awful, that's obviously a mass produced one' . But it seems it wasn't. Only the one I think noticed the Clare (which I thought was well below the rest of them) did not sound so great, but he is a good listener I know so he should spot the obvious.

For your benefit I have put up Another Whistle Challenge so put some beef on your comments and try make your point.

[Jerry Freeman]

Yes Peter, not everyone tried to guess

Obviously the intention was to have people NOT guessing but give an informed opinion based on what they heard.

If the differences are as pronounced (between low cost mass produced vs designer) it would have been easy to at least say: 'that one is brilliant, that's the Sindt' or 'that one is awful, that's obviously a mass produced one' . But it seems it wasn't. Only the one I think noticed the Clare (which I thought was well below the rest of them) did not sound so great, but he is a good listener I know so he should spot the obvious.

For your benefit I have put up Another Whistle Challenge so put some beef on your comments and try make your point.

I thought that was an interesting challenge.

I couldn't hear much difference among the whistles myself, so I didn't try to guess what they were. Then, when Peter posted the answers, I understood. All those whistles, including the Sindt, are voiced at about the same place on the sweet/pure vs. complex/reedy continuum. It would be hard to pick out a difference among that group of whistles.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Cayden]

Well, I obviously have a taste for a particular sound and there wouldn't be much point in sticking a whistle with a totally different character that stands out like a sore thumb or any old obscure whistle few would have heard/played in there.

On the other hand, given the common perception here it should have been easy to lift the better or worse ones.

Personally I wasn't all that surprised about the result, my position has always been that the difference between designer and mass produced whistles is more or less marginal. Which you seem to confirm here.

[Jerry Freeman]

Well, I obviously have a taste for a particular sound and there wouldn't be much point in sticking a whistle with a totally different character that stands out like a sore thumb in there.

On the other hand, given the common perception here it should have been easy to lift the better or worse ones.

Personally I wasn't all that surprised about the result, my position has always been that the difference between designer and mass produced whistles is more or less marginal. Which you seem to confirm here.

I don't think the difference is marginal. For example, I think most people would agree, there's a significant difference between a Sindt and a Generation (upon whose voicing, as far as I can hear, the Sindt is modelled). I actually prefer the sound of a Generation to that of a Sindt when I can hear the difference, because to my ear, the Generation tends to have more character. The Sindt sounds to me almost mechanically perfect, and as such, not as interesting or expressive. A similar case can be made about Burkes, I think.

However, I wouldn't automatically say one or the other is better. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, and these are often specific to the player. (Here, I'm talking generally about craftsman whistles vs. mass produced.) That's why you get such strong differences of opinion, I think.

What is absolutely true for Peter Laban and what is absolutely true for someone else may be two different things when it comes to these whistles, and you're both right. But what is right for Peter may not be right for someone else and vice versa. If you try to get it down to "who's right and who's wrong?" the discussion doesn't go anywhere, just as you've been complaining about.

I will add, I really enjoy your whistling, Peter. I hope you'll continue to post on YouTube. Those are lovely.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Cayden]

I think we're probably pretty much in agreement Jerry (maybe not about the youtube stuff, that's what you get for giving the offspring a digital camera for christmas). To emphasise the point I ended Reel of Mullinavat on the Sindt on an extended e, which should have been a give away as the note really stands out compared to the other whistles, yet few picked up on it. And in general I think the characteristics did come through well, Eldarion had not much of a problem summing them up.

I think by the way telling the difference in the recordings of the airs is much harder.

But at the end of the day I am not addressing marginal differences, I am addressing the fact it's fine on this forum to spout throw away derogatory remarks about mass produced whistles while, as we agree upon, in terms of playability and sound differences between a mass produced one and a designer one are as large or small as those between different mass produced ones or different designer ones (given they are roughly within the same style of voicing).

And my challenge is to those who like to give out to do the proof of the pudding and identify, even roughly, the differences between a selection of whistles based on their character when played. Without lame excuses, just plain and simple, look at what comes out of them.

[Jerry Freeman]

I think by the way telling the difference in the recordings of the airs is much harder.

I wonder if you might consider posting the list of what whistles were used to make those recordings and then let us see if we can match the correct whistle with its recording? You might even throw in a wild card or two, of whistles you didn't use, and see if we can correctly cull them from the list. That might be a more approachable challenge than trying to pick out the correct ones from all the possible whistles in the world. I believe it would still (or perhaps even better) illustrate your points about differences between whistles.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[pancelticpiper]

What's a spreadsheet and what does it have to do with whistles?

Yah well, about a year and a half ago, I got 100 Gens and tested them all and graphed the results
My spreadsheet was supposed to give some pseudo reference point to prove that both ends of the arguement were correct. The results were 6% virtually unplayable and 6% rather nice with the other 78% acceptable players.

OK, I see, a spreadsheet is some sort of graph.
Your results agree with what I found with a smaller sample- I tried a batch of two dozen Generation brass D's of which one was great and another near-great, a few all but unplayable, and the rest mediocre.