Blowing machine
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Re: Blowing machine
I promised you another Easter egg from Terry's data. Remember I mentioned a linear relationship (almost) between Strouhal number and X/R? It still holds up, albeit somewhat fuzzy, with the new data:
Except that it still flattens out around St = 0.4:
Now those familiar with the neighbourhood where X/R lives will ask, with good reason, what about phase angle? X/R is the tangent of phase angle, and phase angle actually seems more meaningful in this context, so won't that clean up what happens at larger X/R? Well, it does, except now we end up with two distinct line segments, one for St up to about 0.3, and another above 0.3 that still flattens out a bit for St above 0.4.
To investigate this further, I'm going to have to dust off some modelling software I haven't used in about a decade. Meanwhile, any insights are welcome.
Except that it still flattens out around St = 0.4:
Now those familiar with the neighbourhood where X/R lives will ask, with good reason, what about phase angle? X/R is the tangent of phase angle, and phase angle actually seems more meaningful in this context, so won't that clean up what happens at larger X/R? Well, it does, except now we end up with two distinct line segments, one for St up to about 0.3, and another above 0.3 that still flattens out a bit for St above 0.4.
To investigate this further, I'm going to have to dust off some modelling software I haven't used in about a decade. Meanwhile, any insights are welcome.
- Terry McGee
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Re: Blowing machine
Woah, I wonder if that's a typo? I can't see how it could close down that small, or wonder why you'd bother. Be good to wander into a leevalley shop and have a fool with it. Not many of them around here unfortunately!Tunborough wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:41 am I wonder would one of these work as a universal whistle coupler? https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/to ... em=03J6109
2 1/2" maximum diameter would be overkill, but it does say it goes down to 1/4".
And their's is a vacuum situation, ours is a pressure situation. Maybe they rely on the vacuum to "suck it on"? In which case would our situation "blow it off"?
And they haven't built in a Pressure Take Off point for the Manometer. I guess we could manage that much....
- Terry McGee
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Re: Blowing machine
And just put up with the probability that the tapered tube is going to sound weak compared to the cylindrical tube, as it will reduce to a much smaller diameter at the bottom. I probably have a reamer made for the 19th century narrow piccolos here somewhere. That might get us in the right ball park.trill wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 12:10 pmOne proposal: use the same head on both straight + tapered "test-tubes". The goal: isolate the effects of tapered vs. straight.Terry McGee wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:48 am . . . How do we fairly compare tapered and cylinder whistles . . .
Re: Blowing machine
Personally, I'd be interested in both volume + spectrum, comparing tapered to straight.Terry McGee wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:44 pm . . . the probability that the tapered tube is going to sound weak compared to the cylindrical tube, as it will reduce to a much smaller diameter at the bottom. . .
Sort of raises the question: where does a whistle's sound emanate from ? What proportion from the window ? the open holes ? The foot ?
Raises another question: where best to put a microphone in the one-of-kind-whistle-bit-blowing-machine test space ?
Wasn't there a simulation result link posted (here in-thread), which showed pressure-fronts from the foot + windway merging to form an expanding oval ?
Re: Blowing machine
For a whistle, what are X, R ?Tunborough wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:49 pm . . . I mentioned a linear relationship (almost) between Strouhal number and X/R? . . .
I'm trying to visualize how the ratio X/R (reactance/resistance) looks.
For a whistle, how is R calculated ? How is X ?
- Terry McGee
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Re: Blowing machine
I did a little exploration in the peace and quiet of the office, just mouth blowing a few notes to get a feel for what we might find. That's with a condenser microphone and a good preamp, recording and analysing on Audacity on the PC.trill wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 6:32 pmPersonally, I'd be interested in both volume + spectrum, comparing tapered to straight.Terry McGee wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:44 pm . . . the probability that the tapered tube is going to sound weak compared to the cylindrical tube, as it will reduce to a much smaller diameter at the bottom. . .
At this point each whistle has its own head. The aim is just to see if we run into any difficulties in recording or analysing. The whistles are my FrankenWhistle (Tapered) and my Highly Tweaked Soodlums Mellow D (Cylindrical).
Code: Select all
D whistles D5
Partial Tapered Cyl
1 -16.6 -16.3
2 -48 -50.5
3 -23 -24.4
4 -49 -44.6
5 -43 -40.7
6 -52 -52.3
7 -60 -58.7
D whistles, G5
Partial Tapered Cyl
1 -14 -14
2 -35 -35
3 -30.5 -24.9
4 -40.7 -40.5
5 -48.1 -39
6 -58.8 -73
7 -61 -60.9
D whistles D6
Partial Tapered Cyl
1 -8.7 -13.4
2 -35.3 -25.5
3 -29 -21.5
4 -47.8 -38.8
5 -46.6 -47.7
6 -49.5 -48.2
7 -46.6 -45.2
D whistles G6
Partial Tapered Cyl
1 -45.3 -50.3
2 -3.2 -6.9
3 -44.5 -42.8
4 -39.2 -40.9
5 -56.8 -59.2
6 -34.2 -30.4
7 -48 -48.6
Note incidentally with G6 that measurable energy remains in the Fundamental (G5, 1st Partial) even though I'm aiming for the 2nd. We don't see that in D6 because I have hole 1 open, making that partial unviable. Close that top hole and you can hear and see the Fundamental reasserting itself, but around the -54dB level. (Yes, you can try this at home!)
So that all bodes well for recording and analysing, although I'll still have to look into the acoustical environment issues.
- Terry McGee
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Re: Blowing machine
In theory, we should be able to measure that. But I imagine it will be complicated, especially depending on how far away you measure from!
Traditionally, we tend to measure "at 1 Metre on axis", as this is enough to get out of local effects of both subject and microphone. But say we were investigating the question above, we'd need to get in closer. And I will probably need to get in closer in the lab downstairs to minimise environmental effects. And need to use directional microphones rather than omnidirectional.Raises another question: where best to put a microphone in the one-of-kind-whistle-bit-blowing-machine test space ?
Re: Blowing machine
Thank you for posting a "first look" at tapered v. cyl.
I've used Audacity on+off for years. Tons of capability for free.
Favor to ask: could you post the full spectrum for D6 ? Both tapered + cyl if not too much trouble ?
The version of Audacity I've got (3.1.3) has an "export" button in the spectrum window. It dumps to a simple text file.
Very interesting tidbit about D6 w+w/o the top hole. "Top hole open" usually is much more stable for me, though the timbre is noticeably different.
- Terry McGee
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Re: Blowing machine
Woah, this could be a test of the system! Here's the tapered whistle playing D6, top hole uncovered:
Code: Select all
Frequency (Hz) Level (dB)
21.533203 -41.803612
43.066406 -58.925816
64.599609 -63.191994
86.132813 -75.786140
107.666016 -80.496193
129.199219 -80.204514
150.732422 -79.754944
172.265625 -80.963058
193.798828 -82.005592
215.332031 -82.144463
236.865234 -83.055077
258.398438 -84.737289
279.931641 -85.765938
301.464844 -84.648506
322.998047 -84.055023
344.531250 -84.099686
366.064453 -84.493942
387.597656 -84.544518
409.130859 -84.221527
430.664063 -83.682861
452.197266 -82.762840
473.730469 -82.046944
495.263672 -81.328682
516.796875 -79.985268
538.330078 -77.708778
559.863281 -77.079575
581.396484 -77.937065
602.929688 -77.055603
624.462891 -74.950432
645.996094 -74.125595
667.529297 -75.245125
689.062500 -76.802856
710.595703 -74.531059
732.128906 -70.868179
753.662109 -67.096748
775.195313 -65.446724
796.728516 -65.191490
818.261719 -65.207504
839.794922 -63.912254
861.328125 -61.073410
882.861328 -57.942368
904.394531 -53.097313
925.927734 -48.069866
947.460938 -46.888153
968.994141 -51.509731
990.527344 -54.565350
1012.060547 -55.191673
1033.593750 -57.767262
1055.126953 -59.091270
1076.660156 -59.435200
1098.193359 -57.181644
1119.726563 -51.610294
1141.259766 -42.247837
1162.792969 -17.989338
1184.326172 -9.245283
1205.859375 -12.329785
1227.392578 -31.136007
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1981.054688 -61.702702
2002.587891 -59.641586
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- Terry McGee
- Posts: 3356
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
- Contact:
Re: Blowing machine
Well, the sky doesn't seem to have fallen in. So here's the cylindrical flute playing D6, top hole uncovered.
Code: Select all
Frequency (Hz) Level (dB)
21.533203 -53.046284
43.066406 -62.657219
64.599609 -63.660294
86.132813 -75.901398
107.666016 -79.998047
129.199219 -79.358139
150.732422 -79.485626
172.265625 -81.050438
193.798828 -81.569260
215.332031 -81.148003
236.865234 -82.963791
258.398438 -84.472008
279.931641 -84.521690
301.464844 -83.280075
322.998047 -82.556892
344.531250 -83.782944
366.064453 -84.933090
387.597656 -83.585945
409.130859 -83.755821
430.664063 -83.731178
452.197266 -82.404526
473.730469 -81.875130
495.263672 -81.558594
516.796875 -81.117340
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- Terry McGee
- Posts: 3356
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
- Contact:
Re: Blowing machine
Now, you might be a little puzzled about a low peak at around 936-939Hz, Bb5. It occurs in the spectra of both whistles. It's the note that you get if you underblow oxx xxx. I guess best described as c# (ooo ooo) flattened by having all the other holes below it covered. You can try that at home too, just start ooo ooo, then oxo ooo, etc. You notice this most on flutes and whistles with big holes. It's not normally a problem as you tend to blow hard enough to go straight to the D6 note.
It, like the fundamental you see when overblowing xxx xxx, are a reminder that even while you are aiming at a particular note, the partials of any other viable notes are still lurking in there. Waiting for their chance to shine....
Now, trill, those spectra are at a low resolution - 2048. I can easily up the resolution if it doesn't fit your purposes. You name it. And of course can leave out parts of the band with no significance, or that come in below a prescribed level.
Big field test this morning. We went playing Irish music at Grumpy & Sweethearts again this morning, and I mostly played the Tapered Abomination. Plenty of positive comments about the sound. Nobody complimented me on the colour match....
It, like the fundamental you see when overblowing xxx xxx, are a reminder that even while you are aiming at a particular note, the partials of any other viable notes are still lurking in there. Waiting for their chance to shine....
Now, trill, those spectra are at a low resolution - 2048. I can easily up the resolution if it doesn't fit your purposes. You name it. And of course can leave out parts of the band with no significance, or that come in below a prescribed level.
Big field test this morning. We went playing Irish music at Grumpy & Sweethearts again this morning, and I mostly played the Tapered Abomination. Plenty of positive comments about the sound. Nobody complimented me on the colour match....
Re: Blowing machine
Thank you for posting !
I've been digging through old notes+refs on amplitude, power, dB + such, all aimed at interpreting such outputs from Audacity.
Many years ago, I wanted to try and understand why a particular whistle had such a unique voice. I wrote some Matlab scripts to try and find what parts of the spectrum produced the sound. I was hoping it was just the first few harmonics. No..... I was stunned at how high I had to go.
Now, where is that old CD . . .
Re: Blowing machine
Philistines !
- Terry McGee
- Posts: 3356
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
- Contact:
Re: Blowing machine
And here's another thing to consider - the actual levels of the notes as played on the two whistles. Notes:
- It's just mouth blown so regard as subjective.
- I'm playing a brief burst on each note starting at 2nd octave B and going down to bottom D
- Tapered whistle on the left, Tweaked Mellow D on right
- I've only shown the top half the envelopes (the bottom half is the mirror image).
- The scale on the left is in dB, so we can get an idea of relative levels.
- Ignore the short burst of low level noise between the two groups, that's just me doing a voice ID.
- It seems to favour the cylindrical, especially on the low notes, but I've become aware I'm not pushing the tapered whistle as hard as I could. I should probably make it a more easy-blowing head!
- And of course these are unweighted figures, I should probably run them through a "loudness" algorithm.
- It's just mouth blown so regard as subjective.
- I'm playing a brief burst on each note starting at 2nd octave B and going down to bottom D
- Tapered whistle on the left, Tweaked Mellow D on right
- I've only shown the top half the envelopes (the bottom half is the mirror image).
- The scale on the left is in dB, so we can get an idea of relative levels.
- Ignore the short burst of low level noise between the two groups, that's just me doing a voice ID.
- It seems to favour the cylindrical, especially on the low notes, but I've become aware I'm not pushing the tapered whistle as hard as I could. I should probably make it a more easy-blowing head!
- And of course these are unweighted figures, I should probably run them through a "loudness" algorithm.
Re: Blowing machine
Very interesting.Terry McGee wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:20 am And here's another thing to consider - the actual levels of the notes as played on the two whistles.
2 questions:
1. How do the 2 window areas compare ?
2. How do the 2 bottom diameters compare ?
Also, what is a "loudness" algorithm ?