Reel Speed

[Cayden]

Wombat is right saying that making too much an issue out of the use of sheet music is plain silly. But, always but, there is a difference between Irish music and classical music in the sense that Irish music played well is alive with constant variation, shift of rhythmic emphasise, little changes in the phrase and a lot more. It isn’t static, the tunes aren’t a score learned by heart and then played. There’s more to it. More learned observers of the music have suggested this microscopic life completely eludes the ear of the outsider and those trained in the classical manner will have to spend years to educate their ear before they can begin to understand.
In the my latest post I referred to what Paddy Glackin was saying in the Raw Bar, that coming to the music at a later age, say your twenties, and immediately wanting to play the way you hear it recorded is quite a different thing from the traditional way. The process is more gradual and encompasses a lot more than learning notes and phrases and all that. That’s where acquiring it by ear comes in, learning the music like you learn a language.
I also mentioned above how I was teaching the reel the West Wind to a pupil. Her mother is a very fine whistler, fluteplayer and the young girl has spent her whole life around the greatest players you can imagine, she started whistle at four and she has absorbed the music in the way I described above. The way I taught her the tune, I played it on the whistle and she followed along on the pipes, first time round she picked out the important notes, second time round she had it and the third time around when we came to the third part of the tune she threw in a wonderful contrary variation, totally sub-conscious it just rolled out every inch of it pure Willie Clancy stuff. I suppose her inner ear analysed the structure and just on the reflex filled it in that way. It was one of those moments you know exactly why you want to play this music, what is great about it and also that there is no way at all at all you can get that sense of idiom from using sheet music.

[Bloomfield]

... I actually think that people think that, because learning by ear is possible in Irish music but nearly impossible in classical music and modern jazz, then listening must be correspondingly less important to playing well in those fields than it is in Irish music. This argument is simply invalid. Once you see this, the prejudice against sheet music just blows out the window.

Interestingly I know several Jazz musicians here in New York who don't read music, and who picked it all up by ear. (I remember btw back in the days when I played Jazz being told time and again that the music was just a rough approximation, that I could never get it from the page, and to listen listen listen.)

. There’s more to it. More learned observers of the music have suggested this microscopic life completely eludes the ear of the outsider and those trained in the classical manner will have to spend years to educate their ear before they can begin to understand.

If I consider how much (how little) I heard in the music five years ago, and how much I hear in it now, I am awed. And if I consider what all there still may be that eludes me, it boggles my mind. A friend once said to me at a session: the more you know about this stuff, the more there is still to learn.

It is also the very point that explains these sheetmusic vs ear discussions on the internet. It is beginners (and that includes outsiders who are learning from sheetmusic) who resent hearing that, for reasons they won't understand until they have learned by ear, they should learn by ear. (Another aspect being that often participants in these discussions are not so much concerned with the straightest route to the core of the musc, but rather with hearing that the path they have chosen is okay, too.)

[ChristianRo]

I wonder if there is a similar dispute among jazz instrumentalist, whether it is appropriate to use Fake Books for their playing. Their dots and chords are more or less meaningless if you do not know how to speak the language. But they are a point to start from.

[burnsbyrne]

Interestingly I know several Jazz musicians here in New York who don't read music, and who picked it all up by ear. (I remember btw back in the days when I played Jazz being told time and again that the music was just a rough approximation, that I could never get it from the page, and to listen listen listen.)

I read once that Duke Ellington demanded that all the members of his band had to be excellent music readers because they were often playing from charts that were just written. In contrast, Count Basie never used sheet music. He played the melody for the musicians, told them the key changes and how many bars to play and then started to rehearse.

Two very different approaches but who could say which was more valid?
Mike

[SteveK]

I wonder if there is a similar dispute among jazz instrumentalist, whether it is appropriate to use Fake Books for their playing. Their dots and chords are more or less meaningless if you do not know how to speak the language. But they are a point to start from.

I've been around a lot of jazz musicians, particularly when I was younger. I never heard any controversy about learning a tune from sheet music but it just seems to go without saying that it's just to get the basic tune. Big bands, of course, like Ellington, Herman and so on used arrangements which were written out. These were for ensemble playing and they had to be followed pretty closely. Most of the musicians that I have known, though, just picked up the tunes and often the chord changes by ear. That's not to say that they could tell you exactly what the chord changes are. They just develop the ability to follow them. There are considerable individual differences in the ability to do this. Jack Sheldon reported that Chet Baker just put the horn to his lips and played while he (Sheldon) had to study theory and harmony to get it down. Sheldon was a pretty good trumpet player too.

One controversy of which I have recently become aware is between chord based and melody based imrovisation. Some players just "run the changes" when they play a solo but others always keep the melody of the tune in the back of their heads and play off of that. One piano player/leader (I'm pretty sure it was Monk) told one of his sidemen to "quit playing sh*t" (running the changes) and to "play off the melody".

Steve

[Caj]

Okay, calling sheet music evil is strong, but don't forget I meant for irish music learning context. I agree with everything you've said, I would just think sheet music is a little more than just unecessary. It might be "hurtful" for someone when the person has a choice between learning by ear or fro sheet music.

Beyond the risk of paper cuts, I don't see how anyone gets hurt by the stuff. When unnecessary (e.g, as a crutch,) it can keep someone from getting better, or learning the important skills, but that's about as bad as it gets.

The reason one shouldn't use sheet music in Irtrad is simply that nobody has to, and there are enormous benefits to learning without it. It's not really a matter of traditionalism, or of sheet music having some intangible power to corrupt the spirit or such like. Pedagogically, doing without sheet music just makes sense, no hard feelings etc.

Caj

[Caj]

Irish Traditional Music as a culture or phenomenon: It's all opinion. Some people live in Clare and do that scene. Other people are handed the tradition outside the country as emmigrants, others pick up the music in a non-traditional method of sheet music or cd's or concerts or foreign country sessions by non-Irish players. Whatever. You get what you get. It sounds different. Do you want to call it 'traditional music?' Whatever, who cares? There's no trad police with any authority, just opinion and mouth.

There's no authority over what "scuba diving" means either, but I'm pretty sure you're not scuba diving unless there's water around.

Caj

[Azalin]

The reason one shouldn't use sheet music in Irtrad is simply that nobody has to, and there are enormous benefits to learning without it. It's not really a matter of traditionalism, or of sheet music having some intangible power to corrupt the spirit or such like. Pedagogically, doing without sheet music just makes sense, no hard feelings etc.
Caj

Did you ever play in a session with someone who has learned from sheet music? Do you know how boring or annoying it can be? Forget about good session chemistry with sheet-music-learners around. Also, I think that once you get used to learning from sheet music, it's very, very hard to start listening by ear. That's why I say it's hurtful, I've seen it with my own eyes. Learning by ear requires effort, and it's much easier to go back to what you know instead of trying harder.

[Wombat]

Interestingly I know several Jazz musicians here in New York who don't read music, and who picked it all up by ear. (I remember btw back in the days when I played Jazz being told time and again that the music was just a rough approximation, that I could never get it from the page, and to listen listen listen.)

I said *modern* jazz because anyone with a good ear can play New Orleans style, swing or jump blues by ear. But from the swing era onwards, not being able to read music has been regarded as a huge liability in a jazz musician and would severely limit your chances of getting employment in working bands and would pretty much exclude you automatically from recording studio work. Now I didn't say it was impossible to learn modern jazz by ear either and I believe a few people play classical music by ear. But why would you bother unless you had a severe reading disability? To play modern jazz you have to understand things like tritone substitutions and it's much easier to learn the theory behind that and apply it than it is just to pick it up by ear.

Of course, the overriding importance of listening in mastering any playing style was precisely my point. So I certainly don't think that you or Peter overestimate its importance in Irish music. I just think we tend to underestimate it's importance in classical music.

[Wombat]

One piano player/leader (I'm pretty sure it was Monk) told one of his sidemen to "quit playing sh*t" (running the changes) and to "play off the melody".

Steve

I think I've heard that story too. I don't think it could just have been chord-based improvisation though that Monk was objecting to. When he played with Monk, Coltrane was very much a chord-based improviser in stark contrast to Sonny Rollins who was melody based.

[burnsbyrne]

"Azalin" Did you ever play in a session with someone who has learned from sheet music? Do you know how boring or annoying it can be? Forget about good session chemistry with sheet-music-learners around. Also, I think that once you get used to learning from sheet music, it's very, very hard to start listening by ear. That's why I say it's hurtful, I've seen it with my own eyes. Learning by ear requires effort, and it's much easier to go back to what you know instead of trying harder.

Are you sure that some of the good players in the session didn't "learn from sheet music"? And while we're at it, exactly how much does one have to learn by sheetmusic in order to really suck? One tune? Twenty tunes? Can you just flirt with sheet music and still come out OK? And are you sure that the boring and annoying sheet music learner wouldn't be boring and annoying if he had learned by ear?

Mike

[bozemanhc]

This is the best example of what I like to get from this forum. These discussions are serious and helpful in understanding the music. Keep it up.

[SteveK]

One piano player/leader (I'm pretty sure it was Monk) told one of his sidemen to "quit playing sh*t" (running the changes) and to "play off the melody".

Steve

I think I've heard that story too. I don't think it could just have been chord-based improvisation though that Monk was objecting to. When he played with Monk, Coltrane was very much a chord-based improviser in stark contrast to Sonny Rollins who was melody based.

I think the sideman in question was Coltrane. But I've been reading a lot of books lately on jazz and jazz history and can't keep everything straight.

Steve

[Bloomfield]

"Azalin" Did you ever play in a session with someone who has learned from sheet music? Do you know how boring or annoying it can be? Forget about good session chemistry with sheet-music-learners around. Also, I think that once you get used to learning from sheet music, it's very, very hard to start listening by ear. That's why I say it's hurtful, I've seen it with my own eyes. Learning by ear requires effort, and it's much easier to go back to what you know instead of trying harder.

Are you sure that some of the good players in the session didn't "learn from sheet music"?

I think it's not impossible to become a good player by learning from sheet music. It just has never happened yet to anyone's knowledge.

And while we're at it, exactly how much does one have to learn by sheetmusic in order to really suck? One tune? Twenty tunes? Can you just flirt with sheet music and still come out OK?

I think just listening to him/her play would make those questions academic, right? I mean, you don't deny the existance of lousy playing, or do you?

And are you sure that the boring and annoying sheet music learner wouldn't be boring and annoying if he had learned by ear?

Mike

Now there you have a point. It's akin to this one: If you never buy a lottery ticket, you will never win the lottery. If you do buy a lottery ticket, it doesn't mean you are going to win....

[Wombat]

One piano player/leader (I'm pretty sure it was Monk) told one of his sidemen to "quit playing sh*t" (running the changes) and to "play off the melody".

Steve

I think I've heard that story too. I don't think it could just have been chord-based improvisation though that Monk was objecting to. When he played with Monk, Coltrane was very much a chord-based improviser in stark contrast to Sonny Rollins who was melody based.

I think the sideman in question was Coltrane. But I've been reading a lot of books lately on jazz and jazz history and can't keep everything straight.

Steve

You might well be right Steve. If so, I don't think Coltrane could have been listening because that period ushered in his most intense exercises in chordal exploration.

I think playing with Monk was disconcerting for Coltrane and did make him rethink the way he played. I think one thing that made that quartet great would have been the tension between Monk and Coltrane. That said, one of the best Monk recordings from that period is Brilliant Corners with Sonny Rollins.