Death of a website (WhistleThis)

[Mr.Gumby]

Especially if the mentors consider themselves above criticism. I think if you want to put up clips for the whole world to hear, you have to be prepared to take criticism, valid or not.

It should probably, for clarity's sake, be stressed it was only one of the mentors who refused to take comment and to this day seems to feel 'disrespected' about the bit he did get.

[eskin]

OK, I can't handle any more of this passive-aggressiveness... (mine as well as Peter's)

To those watching, first, I do want to state that I have great respect both for Peter's playing and his contribution to the whole of traditional Irish music both in his recordings, beautiful photography, and historical archiving.

Peter, you had rhythmic and style issues with clips I posted. You essentially said I didn't have the first clue how to play this music. Other fine players I also respect didn't share your overt dismissal of my clips. But after that, you essentially took over as the final judge and jury of all playing with no tolerance of playing that met your specific narrow requirements. Because I wouldn't roll over and accept your style as the one and only gospel, you treated me dismissively and made me out as some sort of charlatan doing a massive disservice to new players by daring to post some tune clips that heaven forbid, they might learn something from. I'm guessing that to this day, you still have that same opinion. I respected your playing, but wouldn't choose your style for my own, but you could not just let that be.

It seems that you have a dogmatic belief, that the <only> legitimate way to learn this music is to learn directly from source. The rest of us should not be allowed to teach because we aren't source. We didn't have the fortune to be born and raised in Ireland and learn at the master's knee. We can come to Willie Clancy week for instruction, go to workshops with visiting masters and tionols, but in the end, we still have no "right" to teach because we're not source.

I'm sorry. I and many others don't share that opinion if that's really what you think. Dealing with a local scene and nurturing local players in someplace as far from Ireland as San Diego is very different from living in the heart of it.

[Mr.Gumby]

OK, I can't handle any more of this passive-aggressiveness...

Peter, you had rhythmic and style issues with clips I posted. You essentially said I didn't have the first clue how to play this music. Other fine players I also respect didn't share your overt dismissal of my clips. But after that, you essentially took over as the final judge and jury of all playing with no tolerance of playing that met your specific narrow requirements. Because I wouldn't roll over and accept your style as the one and only gospel, you treated me dismissively and made me out as some sort of charlatan doing a massive disservice to new players by daring to post some tune clips that heaven forbid, they might learn something from. I'm guessing that to this day, you still have that same opinion. I respected your playing, but wouldn't choose your style for my own, but you just couldn't just let that be.

Sorry you feel that way about it Michael.

First of all: this discussion, which at this point is manhandling a very dead horse, had not happened if you hadn't revived it by suggesting anybody on WhistleThis disagreeing with you were 'assholes' (which let's face it, is exactly what you implied). So don't give me the spiel about the passive agressive thing. If you make the move, don't complain when you get the response.

You also said here that the mentors should put forward their assessment so others could learn. Which was done, in detail. Phrasing and rhythm, the whole statement-reply structure, it's all at the very foundation of good playing of Irish music. It is not a 'narrow approach' or a stylistic issue when they're lacking. It's a competence issue of central importance. Without it, you have nothing.

if you don't take my word for it read Pat Mitchell's Rhythm and Structure in Irish Dance Music

[Mr.Gumby]

You really need to stop editing your posts substantially after they have been replied to. You've been at that in previous discussions.

[eskin]

Hey, I can't help it if you're reading/responding at the exact same time that I'm writing/revising my new posts...

[JTC111]

The point of contention however was of course that it was questioned if that requirement was in place. As I recall it , 'How can you explain proper rhythm and phrasing if you don't posses it yourself'. That was essentially the question asked. And that was the disrespect you refer to isn't it?

Not having further context to go by, to me the italicised question above is not necessarily disrespectful. If it's true that the person being asked didn't have proper rhythm and phrasing, it might hurt to face it, but it's a valid question if it's based on the truth. More to the point, it maintains and invites conversation, couched as it is in neutral terms. Now, if the question was more posed like, "How on earth do you even presume to explain [whatever] when you suck at it yourself? You fraud." - to me, that contains the elements of disrespect: belittling language, and an attack.

The italicized question could be neutral or derogatory depending on the context in which it was presented. Folks don't have to resort to "you suck" kinds of phrases to be insulting.

The thing that strikes me about this argument is the notion that we can apply rigid standards to subjective material. While music certainly has to some semblance of rhythm, phrasing certainly is a matter of preference. And while one person may prefer a particular phrasing of a passage, attributing various versions as 'better' or 'worse' is purely subjective.

Of course, continually pointing out others' real or imagined inconsistencies is not a recommendable social habit; there is a point where if that's all one does, there's nothing helpful afoot and basic human-to-human disrespect, and a private personality war, is probably what's really going on. It's not always simple.

Agreed. Although in this case, we lack the context to know how the question was asked. But perhaps the conversation will evolve to a subject on which we can all agree ...perhaps politics or religion.

[eskin]

Peter, I agree with everything you wrote about the essence of the music. I just don't appreciate your implying in public forums that because of my particular playing style on some clips posted to a site, I don't appreciate those values. I do, and I wish you would just accept that and give it a rest.

[benhall.1]

I thought I'd been using WhistleThs quite a bit for a while, but I don't remember seeing any of this ...

[crookedtune]

Oh, yes. It was fraught.

[y-nought]

All I know is that they have been doing the Sailor's Wife for more than two years.

That always made me feel bad for the sailor.

[MTGuru]

I'm sorry that my comment here, now deleted, triggered a pile-on of silliness by folks who weren't even participants in the WhistleThis site. My intent was humor, not ridicule. Cleaned up, with my apologies.

[Clarinetcat]

Phrasing and rhythm, the whole statement-reply structure, it's all at the very foundation of good playing of Irish music. It is not a 'narrow approach' or a stylistic issue when they're lacking. It's a competence issue of central importance. Without it, you have nothing.

You still have music.

More than anything, that is everything.

[hoopy mike]

Phrasing and rhythm, the whole statement-reply structure, it's all at the very foundation of good playing of Irish music. It is not a 'narrow approach' or a stylistic issue when they're lacking. It's a competence issue of central importance. Without it, you have nothing.

You still have music.

More than anything, that is everything.

That would be up for discussion and subject to taste and the sense of aesthetic you choose to adhere to.

I thought I'd speed up the discussion with that one, albeit from an unrelated thread. Actually if you press the Generate Automatic Reply Button at the bottom of the screen repeatedly, the whole thing ends up being locked in about another page.

[Trixle]

All I know is that they have been doing the Sailor's Wife for more than two years.

That always made me feel bad for the sailor.

I came to the site as a beginner (which i still am) right as it was in its decline. (i think two or three songs from the end). I can't say that I noticed any of the negativity that was apparently there either, but i do know that i liked listening to the tunes, to the different people playing them, and that for good or ill it exposed me to tunes and real people playing them, not just professional recordings, and for those of us living far away from places where sessions go on, in those places that nearly 100 percent of the people we encounter have never heard of irish trad and think that irish music can be summed up by the words river and dance, it was a nice site that seemed to offer a place to learn and grow and have our playing listened to and critiqued by people who at least knew what irish trad was, with their varying degrees of knowledge and expertise. All in all, with all the negativity, criticism, etc, i still wish there were a vibrant site that offered something similar, in concept at least.

[Clarinetcat]

...it was a nice site that seemed to offer a place to learn and grow and have our playing listened to and critiqued by people who at least knew what irish trad was, with their varying degrees of knowledge and expertise. All in all, with all the negativity, criticism, etc, i still wish there were a vibrant site that offered something similar, in concept at least.

Just curious if that has ever been proposed for here on C&F?