Generations - What's the problem?

[jim stone]

The problem, at least on this side of the big puddle,
is, that while the Bbs are OK and the Cs are also, though often
less so, the Ds are often almost unplayable--they squawk
badly and are very hard to control. I keep buying these
trying to get a good one, maybe one in four or five
is OK. There seems to be a terrific quality control
problem--unless it's been fixed, but I don't suppose
that would register here for some time.

Some time ago some of us wrote to Generation, appealing
to them to do something about it, as people like myself
are fans of these whistles. I've had quite a few of them,
due to my continuing efforts to get something good.

I've played whistle now for maybe 8 years seriously,
and I played not so seriously for many years before.
Generations were much better in the early 80s, at
least those available in the USA.
I had some Generations then, when i was just tootling,
that I didn't appreciate for what they were.

I'm not having these problems with other inexpensive
whistles I've played lately, e.g. the Clare. Though a good
Generation is better than a Clare, IMO. The Freeman
tweaked Generation is much better than what we usually
get in stores here, though the older whistles were
better still, as I remember them.

I have no axe to grind against any whistle (why on earth would I?),
indeed I've played Generations for thirty years. The idea
that my impression is based on incompetence is more plausible,
still eight years is awhile, I've taken a number of lessons,
I practice about two hours a day most every day (a good deal
of this is flute, however, but I play whistles too), and
I'm not an entirely untalented musician, truth be told. Also
why would the problem involve only Generations? And
why would they get worse as I get better?

So the problem is quality control, to answer your question.
Playable ones are hard to find over here, not mythical,
or I would stop looking
for em. That you (or several of you) went out and presto, got a good one, is consistent with this, obviously.

If most Generations available
where you are are pretty darn good, then maybe different
ones are sent here. If that's not true then I don't know what's
going on, but it isn't that the folks complaining
can't play whistles worth a damn or that we hate cheapies.
Widespread complaints from serious muscians probably should
count for something.

Something is wrong with most of the Gens we buy, espeically
the Ds. Gens used to be better, IMO.

Kindly respond to this peter, fairly, if you will.
Go for the strongest arguments, please.

Note that you shifted in your last post to people happily
and well playing cheap whistles. Absolutiely,
that wasn't the issue. Gens were the issue.

Oh, Peter, trust me on this one. I can play my way out
of a paper bag.

[Cayden]

Jim, you say playable Generations are hard to find. The received wisdom on the forums is that only the imaginary sought after great generations are good and even the only ones playable. For years I have been saying this is nonsense. Of Generations and cheap whistles in general. Most of them are perfectly fine in the right hands. I see hundreds of beginners and advanced players playing them without any problem. In other words I don't see a major problem with the vast majority of cheap whistles (Generation, Oak and Feadog anyway). In support of the argument I have on previous thread about Feadogs played an air to show my point of view. In this thread I linked to a number of tunes played on untweaked Generations, one C and two Ds. I volunteered that if need be I'd be happy to record one or more clips to support my point. Considering my own experience and the number of (new) cheap whistles played locally without a problem I wonder where the ongoing problem forummembers seem to have originate. You've heard the clips as examples of these whistles working well. Based on these I don't think the whistles are the problem, it seems fair to wonder about he players who don't seem to get on with them.

[jim stone]

Again, I agree about cheap whistles in general, e.g. the Oak.
Not about Gens. Look Peter I can play any Oak is find,
any Clare I find, gladly. The problem is local to the Gens.
Last summer I bought four D gens, one was playable.
the rest squawked and rasped horribly.

The summer before I did the same thing. Same result.
But only with Gens.

I don't think it's a myth that some Gens are good; I occasionally
find one, but it certainly seems on the face of things that
there is a quality control issue.

I'm open to other explanations but, after all, what am I to make
of this? It's been going on for years. Also it didnt' used
to be this way. Gens were once consistently good and playable.
They have descended in quality, in my hands, anyhow,
as the decades passed. The one other feature that's changed
is that I can play now a great deal better, having spent
lots of time and energy seriously trying to master whistle,
taking lessons.

From this, and the widespread reports from others who have
the same experience, I conclude that there is a problem,
local to Gens, of inconsistency. It seems that production
has become less consistent. Also possibly the design of the
plastic headpiece has shifted for the worse (speculation).

But why would I consistently get lovely Gens in the early 80s
and now ones I can't play more often than not? Why would this
happen only with Gens? And why would it happen, only with Gens, as
my abilities have improved?

I don't know what's going on on your side of the puddle,
and I dont' doubt your experience (or your expertise)
and of course I own that there are some good gens
out there (D being the toughest good key to find).

If you aren't persuaded that's fine, and I'm certainly
not going to dismiss what you say on the ground that
you don't know how to play or whatever.

From where I sit it looks like descending quality control, possibly
from a company that has become complacent due to
the fact that it's sure of its market. When we wrote them,
they answered that there's no reason to change,
we're selling lots of whistles as is, they said.

Possibly the people now at
the top of the this outfit no longer care much
about whistles?

[Wanderer]

Jim, you say playable Generations are hard to find. The received wisdom on the forums is that only the imaginary sought after great generations are good and even the only ones playable. For years I have been saying this is nonsense. Of Generations and cheap whistles in general. Most of them are perfectly fine in the right hands. I see hundreds of beginners and advanced players playing them without any problem. In other words I don't see a major problem with the vast majority of cheap whistles (Generation, Oak and Feadog anyway). In support of the argument I have on previous thread about Feadogs played an air to show my point of view. In this thread I linked to a number of tunes played on untweaked Generations, one C and two Ds. I volunteered that if need be I'd be happy to record one or more clips to support my point. Considering my own experience and the number of (new) cheap whistles played locally without a problem I wonder where the ongoing problem forummembers seem to have originate. You've heard the clips as examples of these whistles working well. Based on these I don't think the whistles are the problem, it seems fair to wonder about he players who don't seem to get on with them.

Well, I think this is a bit disingenious, Peter. You've got what, how many decades of experience behind you? I can certainly make some whistles sound good now that I couldn't play for crap 10 years ago. I have an old soodlum's in my whistle drawer that I couldn't play in tune at all that now sounds fine.

If you give an expert a crappy guitar, and he's able to make it sound great, that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with the guitar.

In that other thread you allude to, I certainly admitted that your recording was pretty typical of the whistle you were showcasing. The playing was certainly good. I also, delicately, indicated that I thought the tone was awful. It's a matter of taste.

There's a difference between tone and playability. These two points often get confused in this particular debate. Tone, as we've mentioned, is a matter of opinion. Playability, or the ease in handling the instrument, is subjective also...the more experience one has, the more they're able to control their instrument. You've been playing so long, especially these kinds of instruments, I doubt you hardly even notice the challenges and problems they have any more. Your word about how easy they are to play really doesn't help the person just starting out.

Heck, there are even squwks and rasps from the Generation on Mary Bergin's playing in Feadoga Stain 1. Unless, of course, you'd like to suggest the fault was with her inability to play And if she was squeaking the instrument, I am frightened to think what that whistle might have behaved like in my hands.

Now on the other hand, you claim that you see generations working out just fine for beginners over there without any issues. But then you suggest that if someone on C&F can't make a generation work out, they must be a beginner unable to play? I'm a bit stymied by the logic in that one. If they're fine for beginners after all, does C&F just attract this certain brand of loser or something?

[Wombat]

In the last tweaking thread is was suggested, by Lyrick I think, that there is some sense in listening to people on the board play before you value their comments. It's an interesting point as I have heard several prominent posters who regard their own opinion very highly who can't actually play their way out of a paper bag. So I think it's a valid to wonder on what these opinions are actually based as I see hundreds of lovely players playing cheap whistles all the time, without any hassle.

I think there is something to this idea but I frankly don't think it would be a very good test of the value of opinions. I can't post clips—haven't worked out how to record on computer—but if I could I'd be able to record and post clips of me playing blues on a cheap guitar with a monstrously high action and making it sound like a well set-up Fender. Suppose, on the basis of the clips, I then went on to suggest that the cheap 60s Japanese guitar I was playing was fine for beginners. I'd be lying or deluded. People who hadn't been playing for 40 years wouldn't have a ghost of a chance of making that guitar sound like that. Should they be learning on something like it? Definitely not. They should find a guitar with a good action that doesn't require concentrated effort and half a lifetime of accumulated tricks to get an acceptable tone. Not a top shelf instrument mind; just a good one. They should be learning the instrument and not fighting its problems.

I know you're not lying, and I'm not suggesting or hinting that you are. I also know that 'difficult' whistles get less so as one improves. But I can't see how the principle I just applied to the guitar can't be true, although to a much smaller degree, of whistles. Unlike guitar, I think you can learn on cheapies—well, you can learn the rudiments on a cheap guitar but you would need to upgrade to improve and the quicker you upgrade the sooner you improve. On saxophone, I'd recommend starting on a good intrument. You can blow an out of tune sax into tune but it ruins your embouchure. Anybody who calls that 'breath control' is having a laugh. Of course, no matter what the instrument, someone who doesn't practice or lacks musicality and talent is never going to sound good no matter what they pay for their instrument.

[Cayden]

Jim, I can't answer you really, after discussion like this, especially if they are heated exchanges, I make a point of trying, whenever I walk into a shop that sells whistles (which over here can mean anything from Custy's to the local newsagent, bookshops or village supermarkets), at least a half dozen of Generations in order to test the point I have made. And I find them all serviceable whistles, I have never found a really unplayable one and as I was just saying to Jerry in PM the untweaked one he sent me was the only one that was certified as unplayable and I didn't find it so, there was a bit of a scratchiness to the high B but it was far from unplayable.
In other words, there's still nothing to convince me I am anywhere unusual in my findings or that I am an exceptional whistleplayer. I am not, although I can hammer out the outline of a tune.

[primenumber321]

I have a Gen brass D and F. I agree wholeheartedly about the D's being rather unplayable. I haven't rinsed the D yet, but I may. Although I'm not sure it will do too much good. It's pretty squaky and clogs with spit constantly. The F on the other hand has been perfect. No tweakage needed at all. It's crisp and clean. Had a similar situation with a Feadog D. Once it was rinsed and tweaked a pinch, it sounds fine. Just picked up a Clarke Meg D for 3 bucks that sounds great. It's just the luck of the draw I guess. =)

[PhilO]

Geez, it's like a bloody tennis match - everyone makes such good points on both sides of the net. In another thread (Down Cheapie Memory Lane, or something like that), I recently got out and played a nice sized collection of cheapies, including a bunch of Gens in various keys. All the whistles, but 2, and including all the Gens played just fine. However, these were all randomly (i.e., no pre-selection) amassed probably during the mid nineties from a variety of sources. Sometime back I also did a quick unscientific testing by recording a bunch of Bflats on the same tune and noted that the Gen was so close to the others so as to make it a "best buy." That said, I also noted that the only difference I could detect was a slightly richer tone in the more expensive whistles, all played by the same crappy player. So, perhaps the difference is in the period that the whistles were purchased as stated by Jim; but both Walden and Wanderer make good points as well.

Heck, sort of reminds me of one of those old Farmer Brown cartoons (boy, am I old) where there's a big fight and all you can see coming out of the round dust cloud are various feet and fists and an occasional head. I guess everybody's "right."

Philo

[Dale]

I haven't had occasion to buy Generations from shops in some time and I guess it's been some years since I've written about this issue. I'm a bit of an agnostic about it, honestly. I'm more than open to the possibility that the Generation Quality Control Problem is largely folklore and the possibility that it is largely true. Or, I might stick my neck out and say that it might a bit of both.

The problem is--nobody has done (or is going to do) the kind of big double-blind study that would be required to address this issue.

Simpler research: We put together a couple of dozen brand new Generations, meet Peter Laban in a public place, and throw down the jam. The Laban/Generation Challenge of '07. To be entirely candid, if forced to bet, I'd put my money on Peter. But not anymore than I could afford to lose.

I would say, however, that I sat across from Paddy Moloney a few years ago and listened to him endorse the idea that a really good Generation is hard to find and often needs tweaking. Now, that could prompt Chieftains-bashing (I myself don't buy their records anymore) but, you know, the guy can play the pennywhistle.

[emtor]

I wonder if guitarists have the same kind of discussions on their forums?
-Can blues be played on anything but Fenders and heavy-metal on anything but Gibsons? -What about hand-made expensive guitars?
But there's one thing guitarists can't do;-stabbing each other to death with their guitars. -We can, with our whistles, if they're made conical enough.

A happy New Year to all of you on this forum,-regardless of opinions.

[Jerry Freeman]

I haven't had occasion to buy Generations from shops in some time and I guess it's been some years since I've written about this issue. I'm a bit of an agnostic about it, honestly. I'm more than open to the possibility that the Generation Quality Control Problem is largely folklore and the possibility that it is largely true. Or, I might stick my neck out and say that it might a bit of both.

The problem is--nobody has done (or is going to do) the kind of big double-blind study that would be required to address this issue.

Simpler research: We put together a couple of dozen brand new Generations, meet Peter Laban in a public place, and throw down the jam. The Laban/Generation Challenge of '07. To be entirely candid, if forced to bet, I'd put my money on Peter. But not anymore than I could afford to lose.

I would say, however, that I sat across from Paddy Moloney a few years ago and listened to him endorse the idea that a really good Generation is hard to find and often needs tweaking. Now, that could prompt Chieftains-bashing (I myself don't buy their records anymore) but, you know, the guy can play the pennywhistle.

I've gone through hundreds of Generations over time, and there definitely is a quality control issue with them. I believe it's mostly because their molds are worn, but some of it (see 1 and 6, below) may also be sloppy workmanship.

I see several things:

1. The D whistleheads often have some plastic missing from the exit end of the windway floor so there's not a clean, straight front surface at the windway floor exit. This would be because in the molding process there wasn't enough plastic or pressure or heat to force the material all the way into that corner of the mold cavity. A similar defect occurred in a run of Waltons Mellow D whistleheads a couple of years ago. The defective Waltons whistleheads literally were unplayable, or nearly so, and Waltons replaced any of them that were reported by wholesalers or retailers, with new stock. (In general, the Waltons whistleheads I've encountered have been consistent and clean.)

2. There's often a lot of stray "flashing" plastic in the voicing window area. (Flashing is the term for material that squishes out from between the parts of a mold and creates a thin, extraneous bit that isn't supposed to be there.) This is evident on the D whistles in many cases, but it's even more of an issue with the Bb whistles. The front edge of the Bb soundblade often has a quite prominent, unintentional extension of flashing.

3. The soundblade bevel is often quite rough and varies in shape from whistle to whistle.

4. On some Bb whistles, there's a distortion in the windway such that the plastic has a swell in the middle of the windway floor, causing the windway to narrow at that point. These whistles blow very differently from ones that don't have this defect.

5. On Bb whistles, there can be quite a lot of variation in the "step" -- the amount of daylight you can see above the windway floor under the soundblade when sighting into the beak through the whistlehead. I have to measure this variation to do a consistent tweak, and I've found that I have to use different thicknesses of lamination in different Bb whistles to produce the same finished step.

6. On many Generation whistles, there's swarf (shreds of material) inside the socket of the whistlehead that the sharp corners of the cut off end of the tube have scraped off the sides of the socket. I also see this sometimes with Waltons whistles, but never with Feadogs.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[PhilO]

I haven't had occasion to buy Generations from shops in some time and I guess it's been some years since I've written about this issue. I'm a bit of an agnostic about it, honestly. I'm more than open to the possibility that the Generation Quality Control Problem is largely folklore and the possibility that it is largely true. Or, I might stick my neck out and say that it might a bit of both.

The problem is--nobody has done (or is going to do) the kind of big double-blind study that would be required to address this issue.

Simpler research: We put together a couple of dozen brand new Generations, meet Peter Laban in a public place, and throw down the jam. The Laban/Generation Challenge of '07. To be entirely candid, if forced to bet, I'd put my money on Peter. But not anymore than I could afford to lose.

Some moderator Dale turned out to be; inciting to riot he is! Although, I find the Gen throw down really appealing, like the UFC. And my apolgies to Wombat; I went with the W and mistakenly referred to you as Walden (should I apologize to Walden too? ).

Philo

I would say, however, that I sat across from Paddy Moloney a few years ago and listened to him endorse the idea that a really good Generation is hard to find and often needs tweaking. Now, that could prompt Chieftains-bashing (I myself don't buy their records anymore) but, you know, the guy can play the pennywhistle.

[Joe63251]

The best things about Genreations is that they are worth the money. They are cheap in price, but they are not cheap in quality. Of course they don't all sound as good as a $300 whistle right out of the box. Gens make the best and least troublesome pre-tuned whistle pipes. I wish I could buy 'em headless.

Even if you spend an hour tinkering with the fipple, it is still worth it. Filling the area before the window is my favorite tweak.

Or better yet, toss the heads and make your own!

Truthfully, we all get a bit frustrated from time to time in our playing. It is then that we start blaming the whistle instead of the player. Kind of like blaming the dog!

Yea there are bad whistles out there (of all makes), but I believe 90% of all whistles are usable. ...and all are tweakable.

[Cayden]

Again, I don't want to give the impression these whistles are flawless and are all fine, and while they are variable and always have been, I do think the majority of Generation/Oak/Feadogs is serviceable.

What I'll do, during the week I'll go into Custy's or some other place, I'll try a half dozen and buy one and post anther clip. I'll also talk to Brid O Donohue who deals with 150 whistle students all playing cheap whistles on a weekly basis, a majority of them are playing Generations and I'll ask her about her experiences. As I said in the other tweaking thread we played for and with a group of her students just before Christmas and they all sounded really lovely but just for the record I'll ask about any problems occurring in the supply of instruments.

[burnsbyrne]

I wonder if guitarists have the same kind of discussions on their forums?
-Can blues be played on anything but Fenders and heavy-metal on anything but Gibsons? -What about hand-made expensive guitars?
But there's one thing guitarists can't do;-stabbing each other to death with their guitars. -We can, with our whistles, if they're made conical enough.

A happy New Year to all of you on this forum,-regardless of opinions.

Yes, they do. I have read endless threads about how brand A guitar is a piece of crap and brand B is always good. The reality is that any guitar maker can make a dud. You just don't want to pay $10,000 for it. I have played hand made guitars from the world's finest makers that were really dead.
The best and most unbiased method to buy a good guitar is to play it without looking at the maker's name.
BTW, the guitar world has it's form of WhOA. It is called "guitar aquisition syndrome" or GAS for short.
Mike