whistles for serious musicians...riiiight

[kfg]

The size and placement of the holes is of no importance?

Quite the contrary. It is the one important thing. That is why an inexpensive whistle can be quite good. It is also why a high end whistle can be made from "crap" materials and still be high end whistles. I usually don't buy my whistle or flute materials. I just take a walk around the block on garbage day. Just tonight I came back with several feet of very nice tubing.

The materials and construction of a fiddle are far more critical because a fiddle is not just a tube with holes in it. It's a box with a stick glued on one side and strings stretched on it.

The design of the fipple and blade don't matter?

Copeland designed the Sweetone fipple. He only had to do that once. They are mass produced for pennies apiece. In any case a six year old can be taught to cut a blade to produce a prefectly fine whistle. It's just a whistle. You don't even actually need a fipple at all. A sufficiently skilled player can simpley blow directly on the blade. When you do that it's called an end blown flute.

A simple system flute is also 'just a tube with holes in it.' Funny why half the people on the flute board are on the list for an Olwell, isn't it? I honstly don't think that's just snobbery or middle-class money speaking.

Not "just", not, but it has little or nothing to do with the sound of an Olwell. The most valuable, most desired Strad violin sounds as bad as a new cheap Chinses students fiddle.

When people select instruments sound is one of the least important factors in their decision. That is why instruments are not selected blind. They select them for magical properties; not musical ones. You have to see, touch and read the sales brochure to understand and desire an object's magical properties. Take the Tipple Challange.

Look at a guitar. It is obviously a very complex structure that has to be made just so to function well.

Look at a whistle. Strip out all the magic. Look at what it is, not what you think it is, and you will discover that it is just a tube with holes in it. High end, low end. Doesn't matter. Grab a tube, drill some holes in it.

This is what makes a whistle different from instruments like guitars and fiddles. Guitars and fiddles must be constructed with great labor from many parts all fitted with a certain amount of precision and whose quality may have a profound effect on the final sound, or even whether the thing is even physically capable of being played or not.

To make a whislte, either high or low end, the basic construction technique is to grab a bit of brass tube out of the bin and drill some holes in it, exactly where you drilled the holes in the llast one.

You can complicate this process up all you want, but in the end, no matter how complicated you make it, and thus how much you have to charge a customer, all you're doing is making tubes with holes drilled in them.

And there is nothing in this process that is innately expensive or variable.

KFG

P.S. I cannot seem to either spell or construct a grammatical sentence tonight. I apologize, but I'm afraid there is little I can do about it other than wait it out.

[Wombat]

To make a whislte, either high or low end, the basic construction technique is to grab a bit of brass tube out of the bin and drill some holes in it, exactly where you drilled the holes in the llast one.

Sounds fine in theory, but all the makers say that no two whistles sound the same. People often complain that high-end whistles aren't 'consistent.'
Also, lovers of cheapies clearly have their favourite brands and also will, if given the chance, go through a box of Gens to find the one or two they really like. Not too many of the traditionalists around here are fond of Sweetones. And plenty of players really dislike certain high enders. To be honest, I really dislike certain medium to high enders.

Whilst the makers on this board regularly observe that minute differences in construction make for significant differences in sound, plenty will say that the materials used make little or no difference so long as they are generally suitable.

[kfg]

People often complain that high-end whistles aren't 'consistent.'

Well, d'oh. A whistle is just a tube with holes drilled in it. It's easy to make a cheap whistle consistent. You just set up the machine to drill the holes.

An expensive whistle is made by hand. That's what you're paying for; why it's expensive. Hands are not consistent.

That's why we invented machines to drill holes. Consistently. It made better guns. Another tube with holes drilled in it.

With violins and guitars the materials are not consistent either, so it takes hands to achieve the best results. With whistles the materials are virtually irrelevant, so a machine can do good work; and you can always have a tweaker give them that little extra hand care if you like.

There is simply no mystery as to why good whistles can be mass produced cheaply:

They are physically simple. Cavemen made them. From bones and reeds. With rocks. I've made reed ones with rocks myself, just to do it. I didn't even work the rocks. I used them exactly as found.

The whistles sounded just fine; 'cause they were tubes, with holes in 'em. They're slightly easier to make with a decent penknife though.

KFG

[Mitch]

It's not often a thread gets funny enough for coffee to come out my nose! This one tho ... hoo boy!

Frivolity aside -

Gallant, I think you're right - If the Gen sound is the benchmark, then that's all you would ever need. The Generation factory has been in business for many years. There must be something right about them! For myself, I keep going back to my cheapies, but I like to pick-up a few of the mid to high enders for certain tunes, they all seem to have a place.

I think it got touched on here - there's so much more player in the sound than whistle - this seems to be what sets the whistle apart - also the ultra niche nature of it - the whistle has a long way to go before you could call it an industry, things are still nice and loose.

As for retailers etc, no one is retailing whistles out of a lust for money - I think you'll find (as Blayne has demonstrated) most have a genuine care for the instrument and the people who play it. I have a similar respect for the makers.

I'll leave the other posts alone, there's only so much coffee my nostrils can stand

[kfg]

I think it got touched on here - there's so much more player in the sound than whistle . . .

I don't know whether you've noticed this or not, but no whistle at all makes a pretty decent whistle with a bit of practice.

KFG

[stefano]

I fully agree with kfg that the whistle is indeed one of the simpliest musical instruments. Almost all the other instruments are objectively more difficult to produce. I am able to make a decent whistle in one afternoon with just a knife, but I will never be able to build a fiddle. But this is not enough. This argument simply proves that cheap whistles can be decent whistles, but do not explain why many professional players prefer them to the most accurate high-end ones.

A possible explanation can be found in the timbre of the whistle. In music, and in art in general, high precision is not necessarily good. Think about the impressionist paintings: they are far less precise than a photography, but people love them. Digital amplifiers have a more precise and linear response than the old valve ones. But the distorsions of tube amplifiers play a crucial role in producing the 'traditional' sound of an electric guitar, this is why valves are still used nowadays. In the same way the 'traditional' timbre of a whistle is that of the cheap ones. This can explain why many players love them.

But again this is not the end of the story. Some high end whistles do reproduce that typical timbre, and their quality is superior to the cheap ones. I think it is meaningless to ask whether the higher quality is worth the higer price: in my opinion the deep motivations to buy an high-end or a cheap whistle are mainly emotional.

When you play an high-end whistle you feel that behind that instrument there is the life of a man. And the satisfaction that a whistle maker feels when he finishes one of his whistle is not comparable with that of a worker of a whistle factory. When you buy an hand-made whistle you are buying a brick of a man's dream. I think it is worth paying for this.

On the other side, when you play a cheap whistle you feel a different kind of pleasure. It is the magic of being able to get good music out of a simple pipe with some drilled holes. And probably this is the true fashion of the whistle

[colomon]

Am I the only one of the opinion that the higher-end (which usually means higher priced) whistles sound far superior to the el cheapo Clarks and Generations? It only took one brief session on a Copeland for me to throw my cheap whistles in the trash. Absolutely no comparison in quality and tone, IMHO.

In my experience, a hell of a lot of pros and/or great players have also chosen to use something other than a Clark or Generation. It's not that they can't make a Generation sound brilliant; it's just that they like something else a bit better.

[Mitch]

I think it got touched on here - there's so much more player in the sound than whistle . . .

I don't know whether you've noticed this or not, but no whistle at all makes a pretty decent whistle with a bit of practice.

KFG

hmmm ...

I've seen people try just that at sessions - somehow they don't seem to be able to get much snap into their rolls and crans, or get asked back to the session ... something there.

I'm pretty sure that these pipes with holes-in are relatively simple to make, but I think you are mistaking "relative" with "insignificant". For instance:

yes the making of a cheap whistle head is relatively simple - relative to a polystyrine airplane kit or the head of a shampoo bottle, then again, the tollerances on these items is not as critical as a consistent whistle head, might be a bit expensive getting those high precision dies made - perhapse not so simple ... perhapse whistle heads have a smaller potential volume than shampoo head bottles - relatively less return on investment - relatively harder to sell to a corporate board - relatively impossible to get a a business case worth funding with shareholder dough.

yes, a pipe with holes in it is relatively less complex than a wooden box with a stick and strings, but then, the placement of guitar frets requires little more math than drawing 2 lines and dividing the intervals with a compass, whistle holes.. hmmm - take a look at the source code behind flut-o-mat - than there's the second octave .. relativity shifting again here.

yes set-up the machines to drill holes, then again, better be using the right machine, don't forget the correct bits (don't want to be taking fingers off too many operators) ... hmmm those machines had better be nice ones, tollerances are crucial - in fact drilling those holes is going to be more expensive than running the injection on the precision dies for the head - this time the board wants to know about relatively high per-unit production costs - relatively difficult to keep your job arguing "quality" issues.

Yes, sit down with the first bit of rock and tube you find and grind yourself a plausible whistle - or wrap a coke-can round a stick then put holes with a nail ... 2 things occur to me here - (1) what's your time worth per hour at your day-gig? How many hours did it take to grind that whistle? Let's take into account all the hours you spent learning where to put the holes and how big the tube has to be ... relative to pumping gas - is it still worth it? (2) It could be argued that the hour you spent going to the shop to buy a whistle might be better spent gnawing one from a chair leg - I know of at least one successful show that involves the making and playing of various whistles and clarinets on stage using garden hose and vegetables - that guy is a maestro, a very experienced purveyor of the edible ensemble - highly recommended, but not everyones' piece of cake.

I read mr De-Bono's book on simplicty - a very simple way to make money, the book had fery few pages in it (Q.E.D). One point he did make was that simplicity is a facet of complexity - you turn the simple face to the punter and hide the inconvenient bits under a convenient budget somewhere.

The "Magic" of the pennywhistle is in its simplicity, it can and is made at far less cost or effort than it's more complex bretheren - even the high-end ones - in so doing, it has made itself relatively inaccessible to rampant exploitation.

I think that's relatively impressive - not insignificant at all.

[brewerpaul]

When you play an high-end whistle you feel that behind that instrument there is the life of a man. And the satisfaction that a whistle maker feels when he finishes one of his whistle is not comparable with that of a worker of a whistle factory. When you buy an hand-made whistle you are buying a brick of a man's dream. I think it is worth paying for this.

On the other side, when you play a cheap whistle you feel a different kind of pleasure. It is the magic of being able to get good music out of a simple pipe with some drilled holes. And probably this is the true fashion of the whistle

Thanks for that , Stefano. It pretty much sums up how, as a maker of high end whistles, I feel.
It also sums up why I still have mass produced "cheapies" on hand. Sometimes, that's just the sound I want at a given moment.

[patrickh]

They are toys, albeit toys that some people can play great music on.

I think many on this board think that the tin whistle is the only instrument that falls prey to this thinking but it is not. I believe that the harmonica and the ukulele both share the same misconceptions (I'm sure there are others).

I can't speak for the harmonica (although I am sure that killer players exist) but in the realm of the ukulele all one has to do is hear Jake Shimabukuro or James Hill and their illusion that the instrument is a toy will be shattered. Untill recently, James Hill played a Fluke brand uke which many consider in the toy category (only because they are relatively inexpensive, they are actually fine instruments).

I believe these false ideas stem from two things, the first is the perceived limitations of these instruments compared to other similar instruments (flute/whistle, ukulele/guitar). These instruments easily overcome these perceptions when a great player plays them. The other big reason for the misconception is the ability to sell pretty good instruments for an affordable price. This leads to their being marketed in novelty catalogs or toy stores. As we all know, a tin whistle in the hands of a great player is no toy even if they bought it at the local toy store.

Lastly, we all must confront the idea that whatever we own simply for the enjoyment of it may ultimate be viewed as a toy. My wife looks at my whistles (whether they be Feadogs or Busmans) my guitars, ukuleles and mandolins as all "big boy" toys. But hey, what does she know?

[Wombat]

People often complain that high-end whistles aren't 'consistent.'

Well, d'oh. A whistle is just a tube with holes drilled in it. It's easy to make a cheap whistle consistent. You just set up the machine to drill the holes.

An expensive whistle is made by hand. That's what you're paying for; why it's expensive. Hands are not consistent.

That's why we invented machines to drill holes. Consistently.

So why do people complain that cheap mass produced whistles aren't consistent? Why do people talk about searching for a 'good' Generation?

There is simply no mystery as to why good whistles can be mass produced cheaply

So, care to remind us of the reason why the same isn't true of flutes?

[Cayden]

So why do people complain that cheap mass produced whistles aren't consistent? Why do people talk about searching for a 'good' Generation?

Partly for the same reason some people here mutter about 'quality control issues' here. It's because they've read it and think it's the thing to say.

Really fussy whistleplayers look for details and nuances a lot of people here won't look for and they will always be on the lookout for a better one. But this isn't limited to cheaply produced whistles. Brid O Donohue maintains the Sindt I got her is not as nice as mine (which she used for Tobar an Duchas), same as she didn't like a Dixon trad in a shop because it had a 'hissy G' which she by the way couldn't find in the one I picked.

On the forums here complaints and mutterings are heard often enough about expensive whistle X or whistle Y not being to their liking often following that by 'but the maker was really good about it and fixed/revoiced/retuned or did whatever needed to it' instead of complaining about inconsistency.

I think it's safe to say top whistleplayers, like other instrumentalists tend to select their instruments for reasons of tone and playability, even if it happens a production line instrument fits the bill.
Other people may select for reasons (reverse)-snobbery, for wanting something 'exclusive' of 'special' or whatever reason between other personal-emotional feelings about instruments and financial or other limitations.

[Wombat]

They are toys, albeit toys that some people can play great music on.

I think many on this board think that the tin whistle is the only instrument that falls prey to this thinking but it is not. I believe that the harmonica and the ukulele both share the same misconceptions (I'm sure there are others).

I can't really speak for the ukulele, but I'll bet that the makers of diatonic harmonicas used to think of them as musical toys. (Cheap ones don't seem to exist any more.) I'd also bet that that's exactly how the makers of cheap whistles still think of their products. I'd also bet that at certain times and places in Ireland, the whistle wasn't thought of as a 'real' instrument meaning that although it's suitable for children, you would want to progress to fiddle, flute or pipes although, if you were especially good, you might continue to play the occasional tune on whistle in public.

Something quite odd seems to happen when folk musics become popular. Folk music is made with whatever instruments are at hand. Some of them might be deemed 'proper' instruments by outsiders; some of them might be deemed toys. Sooner or later, somebody develops a level of virtuosity on the 'toys' that makes us feel uncomfortable about calling the instrument that. That happened on harmonica with people like Little Walter playing as fluently and as expressively as any sax player, albeit within the limitations of a diatonic instrument. Obviously, people like Micho Russell and Willie Clancy did the same for whistle. Recently, Howard Levy on harmonica and Lawrence Nugent on whistle have managed to overcome even this limitation. Apparently, Nugent can play a D whistle in any key and Levy can play a diatonic harmonica completely chromatically, hitting 'bent' notes as cleanly as any notes played straight.

Levy does not play out of the box cheapos and neither does Nugent. Levy requires a level of craftsmanship that the ordinary talented blues harmonica player wouldn't need and mightn't even notice. I'd pretty much bet that Levy developed his technique first on standard harmonicas and then went to custom builders to design harmonicas which lacked certain things he regarded as shortcomings. Nugent plays a Copeland. I'd be interested to know if he can play chormatically as effectively on a cheapo.

Of course, you might question why someone would be bothered achieving this level of virtuosity on what one might regard as an inherently limited instrument. It's not as though Levy can't afford a chromatic harmonica. It's tempting to guess that nobody will ever achieve Levy's skill level again on harmonica although, now we know that it can be done, in a few years it might be relatively common. I play a bit of blues harmonica and I can barely begin to imagine how someone could get to be so good that they would set out to play chromatically.

[IDAwHOa]

I have not had a chance to read this whole thread yet. I just wanted to say I have done MANY blind sound checks with my wife the last couple of years. There are a couple of significant things that have come out of these experiments:

1) She always chooses the sound of the higher end (read better made) instruments

2) She always chooses wooden whistles as her top choices over metal whistles.

Just to temper those comments we are not particularly ITM players or fans. We play mostly church and other music.

[dwinterfield]

reasons of tone and playability, even if it happens a production line instrument fits the bill.

So if there are lots of inexpensive whistles out there with fine tone and playability, how come I can't find them?

Early on, I found a Sweetone that plays well. I like it and still play it from time to time. I probably have 20 inexpensive whistles and, except for that Sweetone, they all have at least one "issue" of tone or playability. Bad bottoms or tops, poor balance between octaves, uneven air requirements, overly fussy intonation, poor tuning etc. The thing is they each tend to have a different issue. I can play any one of them for 20-30 minutes, adjust for it's problems and get it to sound okay. If I put it down and pick up the next one, I have to begin again because it has different problems.

I mostly play a Burke wide bore. It simply has very few playability problems. I like the tone although it's not for everyone. I'd actually like a whistle with the playability of a Burke with a less pure tone. The narrow bore Burke doesn't work so well for me.

I'm not a snob, I'm just frustrated with poor quality inexpensive whistles.

Two other thoughts. I have a few older whistles - Generation, J&H etc. Some play well, others don't. I also have a pretty good Freeman-tweaked Shaw. Tweaking a response to poor quality inexpensive whistles.