Whistle question from a recorder viewpoint

[BoneQuint]

and the top bow makers were certainly still using the wood.

Yep, it's my understanding that you have to get quite a high-end bow for it to be "real" pernambuco. Even when a fairly expensive bow from a reputable dealer is called "pernambuco" nowadays, it's understood to mean it's a wood with properties and color much like pernambuco, but not the real thing. It might be a very good bow, but new, real pernambuco bows are rare. At least that's what I've heard from some woodworkers and symphony types.

[Mitch]

Hmmm the reference to whistles not being chromatic seems more myth than fact - true, they don't have all those annoying extra little holes, but even with the extraneous holes the "chromatic" recorder thing seems a matter of practice. Just as it is on a whistle.

I'm confused by your post Mitch: You learn to cover and uncover the proper holes, in the proper sequence and the recorder plays a chromatic scale. With the whistle, you have to half hole and perhaps cross-finger as well, depending on the whistle and you're ability to half hole. It's a very different process, and most would say more difficult, to learn to play, in tune, chromatically on a whistle.

It seems a hair of a difference - I suppose having better defined finger positions would be mechanically easier - mechanically verses auditory.

Perhapse Chromatic is a term used by the tone-deaf.

I'll take this as a joke

Of course

I just love to watch the recorder people's faces when I rattle off 2+ octaves on my $4 meg - "how did you do that?" is music to my ears

I think you misunderstand, when they say that, what they mean is "How did you tolerate the sound of that thing all the way up into the third register?!" LOL!

As for conical - it's a journey of discovery to peer inside the conical bore of a resonance whistle and see the extensive voicing Mr Sweet has performed!

"Voicing" isn't really done in the bore, conical or not, it takes place in and around headjoint, labium and window, so I'm confused again what is it you're seeing in the bore?

I stand corrected! For "voicing" perhaps read "tuning"? - I am constantly amazed at all the little tweaks and techniques used on the simple 6-hole fipple flute! Things only seem simple at a distance. I wonder what Debono would say...

[falkbeer]

Hmmm the reference to whistles not being chromatic seems more myth than fact - true, they don't have all those annoying extra little holes, but even with the extraneous holes the "chromatic" recorder thing seems a matter of practice. Just as it is on a whistle.

The recorder, as many other instrument, is chromatic only in theory. There are a few keyes that work very well on the recorder, such as C major, G major, F major and D major and A minor, E minor, G minor. But it´s not truly chromatic as the piano where you easily can play in any choosen key. It´s true that the recorder is more versatile in this aspect than the whistle, but it comes at a price of more complex fingering. I used to play the recorder a lot, but nowadays I always find it a bit cumbersome when swiching from the recorder from the whistle. I belive the best system of controlling a wind instrument still is the Boehm system (concert flute, saxophone, oboe). But the simplicity an elegance of the whistle´s 6 hole system is very appealing!

[falkbeer]

Certainly the materials, voicing, and workmanship of instruments like the Moecks don't compare to the high end instruments.

Also, if Moeck or some other large company mass produced a whistle (from whatever wax impregnated generic wood they chose) they wouldn't be hand voiced. While this isn't so critical with whistles as it is with recorders, it would make a difference in the end product.

You make it sound like the Moeck instruments were produced by computer controled machines all the way without ever beeing touched by a human hand and that von Hune is painstakingly carving out his recorders with a blunt spoon in some cave in Montana! The truth is that both recorders are produced in the the same fashion by highly skilled craftsmen. I know that the people at Moeck put in a tremendous lot of work on their top line recorders. I can´t see why a factory shouldn´t be able to produce instruments in the same class as individual makers. I´ve heard few people complain on Martin Guitars, Yamaha Saxophones or Steinway grand Pianos! One example where factory made instruments beats everything are Gibsons mandolines from the 1920´s (the famous Loyd Loar series, the Stradivarius of mandolines) But ofcourse one of the points with "hand made" instruments - it´s a bit like going to the tailor, he can produce an instrument with exactly the qualities you request! But there are no mystical metaphysical qualities in instrument making - just good old craftsmanship!

OTH, Demand for Recorders is certainly down in recent years, particularly here in the U.S., as Early Music isn't as popular as it was a number of years ago, and while the makers here are selling fewer recorders than they once did, the prices for new High End recorders aren't dropping either.

What is a commodity wort? Well the obvious ansver would be that it´s worth what someone is willing to pay on a free market! Most people are familiar with the theory of supply and demand. But there is also a more complex theory of the meta value of a commodity. The meta value often exeedes the value the raw material and productions cost today. Most people of today are very brand orientated. It basicly goes like this - if you have the right brand with the right meta proporties you will be a happy camper that belongs in the right social group and you will show individuality by using these products that everybody else uses, that can afford them. This is basicly why Nike can price a pair of sneakers, they procuce in China for $5, $150. And remember the price of a commodity and the subjetivily experienced quality is not a linear connection.
It pretty much follows the same logarithmical pattern as our senses. Just a little bit better HiFi equipment will often double the price.

[Loren]

You make it sound like the Moeck instruments were produced by computer controled machines all the way without ever beeing touched by a human hand and that von Hune is painstakingly carving out his recorders with a blunt spoon in some cave in Montana!

You greatly exaggerat my comments. And I am certainly not slagging off the folks at Moeck, their instruments are aimed at a different market. And Mr. Von Huene the Senior in fact designed some of the instruments they sell.

The truth is that both recorders are produced in the the same fashion by highly skilled craftsmen.

This simply is not true, the methods and materials of manufacture between the two makers are quite different.

I know that the people at Moeck put in a tremendous lot of work on their top line recorders.

Sure they do, but let's be fair, you compared $400 -$500 mass produced Moeck recorders, to top of the line hand made recorders, they are worlds apart.

I can´t see why a factory shouldn´t be able to produce instruments in the same class as individual makers.

Well, with regards to recorders, it's true, and the reason has largely to do with voicing, just like all the top violins are hand made, because much of the final voicing process has to be done by hand, in order to get the best out of the instrument.

The voicing of recorders comes down to the interplay of relationships of many parts of the instrument, and varying one or two of these by just .002" can make significant changes to how the instrument sounds and plays. Add to this that each player plays a bit differently, and is looking for different things with regards to tone, volume, articulation, scale, and so on.... well, these are things that can't be programmed into a computer particularly because wood moves, after it's been produced.

Finally, Moecks recorders that you originally referenced, are not hand voiced, the inside of the windway, and the shape of the block in particular, are not shaped and dimensioned for optimum performance. In addition, know what the optimum specs are because the head of the shop I worked for designed those instruments, and we regularly re-voiced them as they came into our shop brand new. And, even hand voiced, they aren't as good as a top of the line hand made recorder, nor were they ever meant to be. They are what they were designed to be, an excellent for the money, mass produced, and reasonably affordable Recorder. They are no Steinway, Selmer Mark IV Tenor, Powell or Brannon Bros flute. Nor are they the equivalent of a vintage A or F gibson mandolin or Martin D28. The simply are not. Moeck produces some very nice recorders, but a $500 Moeck is no match for a Von Huene, or Prescott etc. recorder.

one example where factory made instruments beats everything are Gibsons mandolines from the 1920´s (the famous Loyd Loar series, the Stradivarius of mandolines)!

I think I've addressed this above, but even so, the most sought after mandolins and guitars today, are in fact those from handbuilders, not those from the current gibson or Martin factories - unless you count their custom shop stuff, which is, I believe nearly all handmade.

What is a commodity wort? Well the obvious ansver would be that it´s worth what someone is willing to pay on a free market! Most people are familiar with the theory of supply and demand. But there is also a more complex theory of the meta value of a commodity. The meta value often exeedes the value the raw material and productions cost today. Most people of today are very brand orientated. It basicly goes like this - if you have the right brand with the right meta proporties you will be a happy camper that belongs in the right social group and you will show individuality by using these products that everybody else uses, that can afford them. This is basicly why Nike can price a pair of sneakers, they procuce in China for $5, $150. And remember the price of a commodity and the subjetivily experienced quality is not a linear connection.
It pretty much follows the same logarithmical pattern as our senses. Just a little bit better HiFi equipment will often double the price.

Okay, with all due respect, you clearly aren't familiar with the recorder market, or the costs associated with making world class recorders by hand, so there's no sense in my going on here.

I appreciate your sentiments, but you need much more information than you currently have in order to get an accurate picture of this.


Loren

[Mitch]

These are hand-made!

http://www.thehaggiswhistle.com/

I like their meta content too - not quite goat, but in the right direction I think - sort of hand meta smallgoods on the hoof, as it were.

Debono's boneless simple system sweetmeat.

I gotta have one!