I want to play Blues

[Wombat]

Blues can sound great on whistle but is hard to play in a manner that sounds like more familiar instruments. Diatonic harmonica is the obvious intrument of comparison but it is easier to dramatically bend notes on harp than it is on whistle and chords on harmonica allow for chugging effects.
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It is not very useful to discuss chordal articulation in a topic wanting to discuss a strictly melodic instrument like the whistle. Blues on a whistle will follow the path of blues as per the singer which is not chordal but melodic/vocal.

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A tune that is heavily major pentatonic could even be played in D or G on a D whistle. Just experiment and enjoy yourself.

The Raag Dhani pentatonic scale I mentioned earlier is the 5th mode of the major pentatonic scale. I am using the raag name for convenience. You can call it call it "the maj.penta 5th mode" if you prefer to deculturate it.

If you play G major notes, this is the 5th gapped mode if you use E note as tonic. If you use your D maj.penta notes, you get it if you use B note as tonic.
In all cases the mode is MINOR because the third interval is minor.

Melodically, blues is always minor, albeit chordal accompaniment/support can be creative in exploring major and minor relatives.

For someone wishing to play the basics of blues on a whistle, a discussion of relative chordal effects is pretty academic.

With all due respect Talasiga, you don't know what you are talking about. Take the well-known Freddy King instrumental 'Hideaway'. Is that melody minor? Or the equally well-known T-Bone Walker classic, 'T-Bone Shuffle' where the riff plays up the major/minor ambiguity inherent in the blues. Just about every text on blues talks about the major pentatonic scale. Why do you think that might be?

There is a very distant and highly ambiguous relationship between modes as you insist in talking about them and the blues. IMO, it's far too distant to be helpful. But if somebody finds it helpful, good luck to them.

[talasiga]

With all due respect Talasiga, you don't know what you are talking about. Take the well-known Freddy King instrumental 'Hideaway'. Is that melody minor? Or the equally well-known T-Bone Walker classic, 'T-Bone Shuffle' where the riff plays up the major/minor ambiguity inherent in the blues. Just about every text on blues talks about the major pentatonic scale. Why do you think that might be?

There is a very distant and highly ambiguous relationship between modes as you insist in talking about them and the blues. IMO, it's far too distant to be helpful. But if somebody finds it helpful, good luck to them.

I have tidied up my post so that is clearer. We must have cross posted.

Prior to editing and as it stands currently my post makes a very clear nexus between the major pentatonic scale you raise and the pentaonic stem of the blues scale I discuss. I am using "mode" in one of its many senses and in the sense is "mode of scale" "or scale type" which is a general or universal way of using the term. That is, as a template of interval progressions. And yes, we can play major penta. with blues because it is relative to the scale I and others describe.

A MODE of scale with intervals
tonic:2:2:3:2:3 = major pentatonic

Now, if you take that scale's 5th note as tonic you get
tonic:3:2:2:3:2 = pentatonic stem of blues scale which has a minor third.
( I say stem because we need to add an augmented 4th to this).

This is analogous to the D major diatonic scale which evinces the following relative modes
E Dorian, F# Phrygian, G Lydian, A Mixolydian, B Aeolian, C# Locrian.

Wombat, anyone who plays the blues on hisorher whistle, according to the tablature I provided will be able to play any blues music providing the keynote has been established.

Introducing a discussion of CHORDAL (more than one note played simultaneously - usually at least 3 notes) effects as per harmonica etc is pretty friggin academically useless in a whistle topic. How you play blues whistle is how you would sing it - line melody - not your chugging HARMONICa.

My understanding is consistent with
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:-oio ... =clnk&cd=5
and many other sources.

[Wombat]

Prior to editing and as it stands currently my post makes a very clear nexus between the major pentatonic scale you raise and the pentaonic stem of the blues scale I discuss. I am using "mode" in one of its many senses and in the sense is "mode of scale" "or scale type" which is a general or universal way of using the term. That is, as a template of interval progressions. And yes, we can play major penta. with blues because it is relative to the scale I and others describe.

A MODE of scale with intervals
tonic:2:2:3:2:3 = major pentatonic
Now, if you take that scale's 5th note as tonic you get
tonic:3:2:2:3:2 = pentatonic stem of blues scale which has a minor third.

How does this help? People play major pentatonic licks and minor pentatonic licks in the very same tune. They use both scales interwoven with the very same tonic. They don't change tonics to do this nor is there an implied modulation.

Typically a blues has a major/minor ambiguity. St.Louis Blues illustrates this well.

Wombat, anyone who plays the blues on hisorher whistle, according to the tablature I provided will be able to play any blues music providing the keynote has been established.

Possibly. I don't say that there is only one way to teach blues, and I haven't checked your earlier post to see what it says now, but what I was commenting on didn't seem either accurate or helpful to me. But I wouldn't have said that had you not jumped in to criticise my post.

Introducing a discussion of CHORDAL (more than one note played simultaneously - usually at least 3 notes) effects as per harmonica etc is pretty friggin academically useless in a whistle topic. How you play blues whistle is how you would sing it - line melody - not your chugging HARMONICa

Nit-picking bollocks. Harmonica is a diatonic instrument. You can wail on it just like whistle. You can't quite wail on whistle as much—a point I made. Nor can you get chordal effects like a harmonica. My 'academic' discussion consisted of nothing more than this observation, perhaps useful to a beginner looking for a model for blues whistle playing but quite dispensible to anyone who doesn't need to be told. I thought we were trying to provide advice to help a beginner.

[talasiga]

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Harmonica is a diatonic instrument. You can wail on it just like whistle. You can't quite wail on whistle as much—a point I made. Nor can you get chordal effects like a harmonica. My 'academic' discussion consisted of nothing more than this observation, perhaps useful to a beginner looking for a model for blues whistle playing but quite dispensible to anyone who doesn't need to be told. I thought we were trying to provide advice to help a beginner.

No. A beginner doesn't need to know about chordal effects which they can't do on a whistle.

A beginner needs to hear how to play it from someone who can wail it on a flute or whistle in a way that outwails a wollongong wailer.

My first post in this topic tells the beginner what notes to play taking
XXX XXO as the tonic. This is consistent with other sites' info.

If you, from your academic ivory tower, prefer a major mode approach, you could easily have said "as per talasiga's tablature except
XXX OOO as tonic/root/keynote"

Beginner HAS already ABSCONDED after reading Jim Stone's post and my post. Do you really think that your lecture about chordal chugs on a blues harp will facilitate hisorher grasp of the fundamentals of playing and having fun with blues melody lines on a whistle?

[Wombat]

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Harmonica is a diatonic instrument. You can wail on it just like whistle. You can't quite wail on whistle as much—a point I made. Nor can you get chordal effects like a harmonica. My 'academic' discussion consisted of nothing more than this observation, perhaps useful to a beginner looking for a model for blues whistle playing but quite dispensible to anyone who doesn't need to be told. I thought we were trying to provide advice to help a beginner.

No. A beginner doesn't need to know about chordal effects which they can't do on a whistle.

A beginner needs to hear how to play it from someone who can wail it on a flute or whistle in a way that outwails a wollongong wailer.

My first post in this topic tells the beginner what notes to play taking
XXX XXO as the tonic. This is consistent with other sites' info.

If you, from your academic ivory tower, prefer a major mode approach, you could easily have said "as per talasiga's tablature except
XXX OOO as tonic/root/keynote"

Beginner HAS already ABSCONDED after reading Jim Stone's post and my post. Do you really think that your lecture about chordal chugs on a blues harp will facilitate hisorher grasp of the fundamentals of playing and having fun with blues melody lines on a whistle?

I think it best to refrain from saying what I really think and leave it to Beginner and others to choose from the available advice whatever suits their needs. Your manners are, as always, on the public record.

[Joseph E. Smith]

Your manners are, as always, on the public record.

Let's play nice folks.

[theinritz]

I play Blues on my harmonica and that's usually on a C. I picked up a Clarke C whistle and I'm gettin' the hang a things. It works fine but the note bending's tuff. Bending notes on a whistle is much more subtle than on a harp. I think that I can work with that and create a new sound.

[ConnieS]

Blues work great on a whistle. A Burke would never do. That whistle is too pretty & bright. Make it a dark sounding whistle--a mellow wood works and slides pretty well. And I wouldn't cross-finger. You can slide into a half-hole really nicely. Doesn't matter if you over slide and go sharp. Some great bottleneck guitar sliders go a bit sharp all the time. Just get some music and then play along. Wrong key? Download Audacity and change the key until it works.
No, you'll never slide as far as a bottleneck, but sliding up from A to Bb and then back down into the A on your D whistle is a pretty nice sound.

Or maybe you'll be the innovator who figures out how to get a deep slide out of a pennywhistle.

Enjoy.

[C age ing]

Mujo,
It's a case of just doing it. I cannot conceive that Blind Willie Pomegranate woke up one morning and said,"I think I'll invent the blues today. Now let's do a bit of inter major/minor swapping, a bit of pentatonic and then throw in a bit of far out modes.". I think the guy felt sad, reached for his axe, et voila, La Belle Blues.
Back in the late fifties and early sixties played trombone in various jazz outfits, and wanting to be better, read Professor André Hodeir's book on jazz many times. He transcribed a Dicky Wells solo and although I could play it, it sounded lifeless as the transcription lacked all the nuances that Mr. Wells put into it, but even the learned Professor, could not.
Feel it, experiment, find something works, keep it. If it doesn't, ditch it. As for the scale thing, Thelonius Monk wrote Blue Monk, a blues consisting mainly of rising and falling semitones. Look up Gerry Mulligan and you'll find that along with Little John Eardley, he performed 'Blues Going Up and Up'. Did they conform to the so called blues scale? Doubt it.
Feel it, and then Noodle and you'll play the blues, it ain't no intellectual exercise
Bill.
That should get them going!

[Wombat]

Mujo,
It's a case of just doing it. I cannot conceive that Blind Willie Pomegranate woke up one morning and said,"I think I'll invent the blues today. Now let's do a bit of inter major/minor swapping, a bit of pentatonic and then throw in a bit of far out modes.". I think the guy felt sad, reached for his axe, et voila, La Belle Blues.
Back in the late fifties and early sixties played trombone in various jazz outfits, and wanting to be better, read Professor André Hodeir's book on jazz many times. He transcribed a Dicky Wells solo and although I could play it, it sounded lifeless as the transcription lacked all the nuances that Mr. Wells put into it, but even the learned Professor, could not.
Feel it, experiment, find something works, keep it. If it doesn't, ditch it. As for the scale thing, Thelonius Monk wrote Blue Monk, a blues consisting mainly of rising and falling semitones. Look up Gerry Mulligan and you'll find that along with Little John Eardley, he performed 'Blues Going Up and Up'. Did they conform to the so called blues scale? Doubt it.
Feel it, and then Noodle and you'll play the blues, it ain't no intellectual exercise
Bill.
That should get them going!

You seem to be running with two separate ideas, both of which have merit as far as they go, but which don't stand up to closer scrutiny pushed as far as you are pushing them. They don't quite go together comfortably.

First, no amount of scale work or sheet music will give someone blues feeling if they don't or can't pick it up by ear. Dead right.

Second, the scale thing. The discussion of scales got scrambled earlier for reasons I'd rather not go into. Your point about chromatic phrases in blues is correct but the choice of which chromatic phrases to play, and where, is far from random and has nothing to do with how you 'feel' when you wake up. Take 'Blue Monk'. Not just any old bunch of ascending notes would work in that tune. Monk employs the right ones to emphasise the major/minor ambiguity of the blues. If you don't believe me, write out the notes he plays and the chords he plays them against. Try playing the notes in bar two of Blue Monk in bar one and vice versa without changing the chords. Ouch! Another Monk tune which employs a very similar idea is 'Straight No Chaser.' But, again, check what notes are being played against which chord. BTW, do you play 'Blue Monk' with facility on whistle? Would you expect a beginner to do so just by ear and by 'feeling' it? I wouldn't, which is why I said I didn't think your insights quite went together comfortably.

Blues is a folk music and, as such, there is no substitute for learning phrasing by ear and by emulation—by being shown how to do it on your instrument by someone who knows. I've had almost 40 years of experience playing and teaching blues semi-professionally and I learnt by ear. But I couldn't have progressed from folk blues to jazzier blues competently without thinking about theory. Recently a very fine modal jazz and progressive rock sax player came to me for lessons because, after decades of gigging and making records, he still couldn't play blues convincingly. Now he can. This guy listened to the blues a lot and could bend notes, growl and wail with the best of them on music he understands—modal jazz, for example. What he had no feel for was judicious note selection in the blues. He'd been doodling on blues for 30 years to no avail—so telling him to just feel it and doodle would have been a waste of time. Apart from transcribing some solos for him and explaining why certain notes worked where they were placed but not in other places, the core of what I told him was in my first post on this thread. There is probably no note in the chromatic scale which can't be played effectively in a blues solo or melody, with the possible exception of the minor second. But, play certain notes in the wrong place and the effect is excruciating.

[A-Musing]

I'm an oh so funky funky white boy. I wail and slip-slide my way into positive DESPAIR on my get-down-amongst-it Burke. Nastiness! Why, it just doesn't GO any lower!
Absolutely NOTHING has gone right, during my embittered existence...and that Shiney Viper just ANNOUNCES IT, in the most endearing, broken-down fashion. (Bellowing crippled modalities, and incredibly flat...and concurrently DIRTY configurations. Oh, yes.)
Oh my, Agatha...perhaps I have a soul! Imagine!
WEEP, my honky-white, industrialized, sterile, suburban Burke!
Stilted and emotionless...WAIL the awesome tale of how it could possibly have been...but, of course, due to the unending deceit and malevolence of those other people in my life, turned out NOT TO BE...

blues

[C age ing]

So Blind Willie Pomegranate did get up, studied a music theory book and invented the blues. In my ignorance I thought it was an offshoot of Field Hollers and hymns. Was he a graduate of Juliard?
No I don't play blues on a whistle but can cope reasonably on a renaissance recorder, keyless flute, Böhm flute, MIDI keyboard and guitar. Bit of a show off aren't I? If pressed can cope on a slide banjo too, however i am beginning to believe that, as the old sore went, the only live culture in Australia is in a yoghurt pot.
See, told you that would get them going.
Bill.

[Nanohedron]

So Blind Willie Pomegranate did get up, studied a music theory book and invented the blues. In my ignorance I thought it was an offshoot of Field Hollers and hymns. Was he a graduate of Juliard?
No I don't play blues on a whistle but can cope reasonably on a renaissance recorder, keyless flute, Böhm flute, MIDI keyboard and guitar. Bit of a show off aren't I? If pressed can cope on a slide banjo too, however i am beginning to believe that, as the old sore went, the only live culture in Australia is in a yoghurt pot.
See, told you that would get them going.
Bill.

Could someone please translate this? I'm having a comprehension problem.

[Denny]

I believe that he was replying to Wombat's post.

[Nanohedron]

Yes, I gathered that...