FREE FROM SERPENT MUSIC - A THANK YOU

[peeplj]

This just seemed a golden opportunity to remind everyone about Scoiltrad, the online music school where whistle and flute lessons are available from Conal O'Grada.

Individual lessons are available in beginning, intermediate, and advanced. The lessons includes a video of the tune being played at performance tempo with full ornamentation and variation, loops of the A and B parts at 50% and then at 80% speed for playing along with and for those who learn by ear; a written score for those who can learn a tune that way; and separate videos for each ornament and variation where the technique is first demonstrated extremely slowly, then at speed.

Each lesson is about a 5 to 8 meg download; broadband is helpful but they can be downloaded by the patient over a dial-up connection. They require a computer that can run Quicktime.

After you feel you are doing well on the tune, you can record an MP3 of your playing and Conal will provide feedback on your playing and progress.

For anyone hesitating, this is not like the harsh criticism that clips recieve on these boards; rather, it is a more even-handed approach, pointing out where you need to improve, and also pointing out what you are doing well and what you could do more of.

Conal is not only a great musician, he is a great teacher, and very approachable.

At $20 a lesson these represent an enormous opportunity and great bang for the buck. I have taken several of these lessons on flute and whistle, and I think all will agree that it has made an enormous difference in my playing, not just on the tunes in the lessons, but on everything I play. (That's not to say that there aren't plenty of things wrong with my playing, mind you...only to say that a lot of improvement has occurred.)

If you are serious about learning to play, and there is no local teacher available to you, this represents a great way for you to learn from a teacher who has definitely "been there and done that."

There is also a new set of graded lessons combined into an entire course for beginners on flute and whistle. I have no experience of these, but I bet they are a wonderful way to learn to play.

I don't have any connection with Scoiltrad except that I am a very satisfied, repeat customer.

My best wishes to all,

--James

[billw]

<snipped cuz it was kind of long and it's right here anyhow >
So, don't even think about the issue in personal terms, or in terms of good intentions, or even in terms of stylistic preference. What I am taking away from this thread is this: Good traditional musicians think that a beginner should be warned against learning from sound clips that don't have good rhythm, phrasing, intonation, and so forth.

Hiya, Bloo, and thanks for your analysis. I know it's not about me, and I'm not taking it that way. But I do want to point out that I teach my little class this way, and as I said, the students who take it tend to go on to be better whistlers than I, (perhaps despite me! ) I know there is a difference, though, between sitting in the class and playing with an active critique, than taking those little tunes and just trying to parrot them (heaven forbid! ) whish is why I thought it would be nice if there were some better examples on the site.

I intend to modify that entire section, clean up the examples there, and put up more, if the kind members of C&F will help out with 'em. I will also explain the different ways available to learn, of which I am aware, and, thanks to James, will make sure everyone knows about Scoiltrad.

But really, don't sell the learning-by-rote method short -- it works in grade schools (which of us haven't been subjected to "times tables"), and even though some still have to mentally go over those tables to do multiplication, there are still mathematicians and physicists, etc., out there who initially learned that way and weren't totally crippled by it. I think it may be more the determination of the student, than the learning method, that determines the outcome.

Finally, believe it or not, I actually can play (somewhat) better than is evidenced by the four "example" pieces, and it's pretty much how I learned, thanks to participation here on the board. Even though I played the bodhran on Susan's "Kesh Jig" piece, a couple centuries ago, I did learn the piece on whistle by listening and playing along with her .WAV file she sent (thank you, Susan!).

Well, I've babbled enough, so I'm going to leave it here. I'll continue to watch the thread, because I've learned quite a lot from doing so, and will do my best to turn that little bit of my website into a positive learning experience for anyone who happens onto it. Oh, I will stick my head up when changes (hopefully improvements) are made, and continue to solicit your feedback and contributions.

(EDIT) -- I popped in and fixed the page as mentioned above. Hope it's okay, James - I did take your name in vain, pointing folks to the above post. Cheers, Bill W.

Thanks, all!
Bill Whedon

[colomon]

But really, don't sell the learning-by-rote method short -- it works in grade schools (which of us haven't been subjected to "times tables"), and even though some still have to mentally go over those tables to do multiplication, there are still mathematicians and physicists, etc., out there who initially learned that way and weren't totally crippled by it. I think it may be more the determination of the student, than the learning method, that determines the outcome.

I don't think anyone here is against learning tunes by ear from recordings (though of course having a live teacher handy is better).

The issue here is that the "multiplication tables" you have posted as examples have about one-third of the answers wrong. And I don't think any sensible person would suggest that it's okay for kids to study multiplication tables with wrong answers, because the kids will eventually figure out what's wrong with them...

[Bloomfield]

Like Colomon, I think that you continue to miss the point, Billw. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[callahan]

Fascinating exchange going on here.

It may have started with someone thinking they were doing people
a favor and getting it back in the face but IMHO that's not what
it's about anymore.

Perhaps the message thread title should be changed to...

* Who should be allowed to teach ITM?

It's an interesting topic and when you consider that there are MANY
people who feel VERY strongly about this it's not unusual that
Peter Laban would have chosen to respond to Bill's initial ( well
intentioned ) posting with an insult and a lecture.

However... as I think James ( peeplj ) and others have tried to
point out...

This is not an 'unrestricted' public forum.
There are RULES.

Anyone who registers with CF has to AGREE to the following...

> You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous,
> hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented... etc.. etc...

So let's break that down...

Was Peter Laban's initial response...

abusive? - Maybe. IMHO this would be a 'Yes'.
obscene? - No
vulgar? - No
slanderous? - IANA ( I am not a lawyer ) This is actually a 'Maybe'.
hateful? - Maybe
threatening? - No
sexually oriented? - No

So that's 3 'Maybes'.

Since no admin has jumped in then no one sees a violation of
'agreed to' behavior on this (restricted) public forum but Peter
certainly has come dangerously close to violating the 'agreement'.

It wouldn't have taken much effort to just say...

"Thanks for your contribution to the community, Bill, but I have
to say that I don't believe those examples are appropriate for
for a beginner to learn from... and here is why ( teaching
experience examples follow )."

I believe this is what James ( peeplj ) was trying to say as well.
Like James, I am an IT professional and I don't know how many
times I've seen well-intentioned people ruin their own chances
at making contributions to online forums but not understanding
the email medium. It is not a 'conversation'. It is a broken
chain of messages with no visual or tonal clues as to a person's
real intentions. It can OFTEN be mis-understood. You have to
make an EXTRA effort in email to be sure you are getting your
point(s) across.

I am a fairly accomplished ITM player myself.
I had no problem with Bill's little clips.
They were obviously not perfect. So what. For what
they were intended for... they are fine.
If someone is serious about learning the whistle there are
TONS of OTHER examples out there and anyone who learns
to play a tune from just ONE example of it is, well, NOT serious
about learning the music at all.

I think Peter Laban is a fine ITM player and probably a great
teacher over there in County Clare.

ALL of my people are from County Clare. I KNOW the
environment over there. The musicians of County Clare
take ITM very seriously. There is a long and fine tradition
of 'upholding the traditions' in County Clare and everyone
needs to realize that's the pool that Peter Laban swims in.

That being said... I think Peter was wrong to just come back
and insult Bill the way he did. Period. End of sentence.

I think Peter should re-read peeplj's posts and not, like others
have done, try to put any words into Jame's mouth. He was
just trying to be helpful and warn someone that as much as
they were suggesting someone should go and take a beginner's
whistle class... they themselves should think about taking
a beginner's EMAIL FORUM behavior class.

Flamesuit is now zipped up... ready for responses.

Yours...
Callahan

[Joseph E. Smith]

213+ responses, and this thread is still going?

Bill is going to do his thing, some will protest, some will not, others will stand guard over Bill's bruised and battered ideas and what have we learned? That there is a right way, a wrong way, AND a way that chooses to remain apart from it all... just because.

Not that it counts, but IMHO this thread has become tiresomely redundant. :roll:

[Azalin]

That being said... I think Peter was wrong to just come back
and insult Bill the way he did. Period. End of sentence.

If what Peter wrote was an insult, I think you'd have an heart attack reading some of my posts (which are not insults, but would be based on your criterias). You should activate a Chiff & Fipple filter or your experience here might be life threatening

PS: I'll try not to write anything sexually oriented. Oops, did I just write a word with "s", "e" and "x" ???

[callahan]

Okay... so now I have your ticket.
You're a jerk.

I am forewarned... thanks.

Yours
Callahan

[Azalin]

Okay... so now I have your ticket.
You're a jerk.

I am forewarned... thanks.

Yours
Callahan

I'm a jerk? Well, now you're being polite.

PS: Why is it that it's always people preaching about peace who'll end up with name calling? That's a dimension of human nature I still can't figure out.

[Bloomfield]

Okay... so now I have your ticket.
You're a jerk.

I am forewarned... thanks.

Yours
Callahan

Couldn't you have rather written something like:

"Thanks for your contribution to the community, Azalin, but I have to say that I don't believe that last post was appropriate as a response to my well-meaning and long post... and here is why ( posting experience examples follow )."

Perhaps I may suggest that you re-read Jim Peeples' posts? But I do thank you for sharing with us your sentiments about Az.

[callahan]

I was thanking you for the warning.
That's very polite, is it not?
I will be fully prepared to hear just about
anything from you.

Second thanks for the warning.
Fire away ( but try to stay on topic ).

Yours
Callahan

[Nanohedron]

It's gotta be all the mithril around here lately...

[Azalin]

That's all right. Maybe in your culture this is how you thank people. I might try it someday.

"Hello mom. Thanks for you apple pie. You're a jerk!".

[emmline]

Was "jerk" on topic or off?

[glauber]

Hello, fellow jerks and jerkettes! I just wanted to say that it's a marvellously rotten inconvenience to be a member of this pigsty!

This new polite language is fun!