The Planxty Songbook 1976.PDF redux

[Mr.Gumby]

evidently played on what uilleann pipers would call a C# set of pipes, what

It wasn't. The transcriber was a 'legit' musician (why do you keep insisting on calling them that?) who hadn't a clue (see also the first bar of the last part of Humours of Ballyloughlin that includes a low C and two bars on the E crann has the poor person so confused the tuen changes to 9/8 for two bars.)

[MTGuru]

Cúnla is written in Dflat

Very strange. The original recording (Well Below the Valley) is clearly in D. Maybe the transcriber had a slow turntable. Or a slow ear.

[Michael Anderson]

Thanks Richard, it really sounds mostly like a curiosity than anything. A collectible curiosity though.

I too heard Cunla on The Well Below the Valley as D as well; was just listening and accompanying on my bouzouki. Thought maybe it was pitched up when mastering or something, you never know...

[Mr.Gumby]

you never know.

Well, the tone of Flynn's concert pitch pipes is very recognisable and that's what he is playing on that track. A C# set would have sounded very very different, even when spun up to D.

[Michael Anderson]

I am happy to accept the judgement of your ear, sir!

[pancelticpiper]

The transcriber was a 'legit' musician (why do you keep insisting on calling them that?)

Because it's the only term I know that precisely conveys my meaning. I picked up the term from professional jazz musicians, who use it to mean 'someone who has had formal Western musical schooling, and can fluently sightread sheet music, whether their background is renaissance, baroque, orchestral, modern, jazz, blues, rock, pop, country, bluegrass, or any other genre."

But that takes 30 words!

I often hear trad people and folk people speak of 'classical' musicians, and I'll sometimes say 'orchestral' musicians, but these don't serve, because the people in question might never have played Classical music, or played in an orchestra. One could say 'formally trained' musician but there are musicians who were quite formally trained but are not 'legit' (many Highland pipers fall into this category).

I know that Liam is using a D chanter on the Planxty album. What I wonder is, did he ever use a C# chanter for playing that song with Planxty? I have recordings of Liam playing various chanters including C#. The transcriber would not, on his own, have transposed the piece down a halfstep. Either he was told to do so, or was working from a recording done in that key.

[MTGuru]

The transcriber would not, on his own, have transposed the piece down a halfstep.

Going by the seemingly random, uninformed transcription errors you described above, I wouldn't be so sure.

But actually, my guess would be that it was transcribed correctly, and the publisher/typesetter slapped the wrong key signature on it.

"Hey, let's try out our new D-flat key signature slug. Yeah, wow, that looks cool. Just look at all those b thingies!!"

[pancelticpiper]

Yes but those errors are errors of not understanding trad Irish dance music metres, not errors of key signature. The pure instrumentals are all in the same keys they appear in on the albums.

About the songs, I'd have to check all of them against the albums.

Wouldn't surprise me if 1) the publishers thought Cunla was too high and wanted it brought down a bit or 2) the guys in Planxty thought Cunla was too high and, when Liam showed up at a gig with a C# chanter, asked him to use that one for that song, and a tape of such was provided to the transcriber.

Liam's used chanters in D, C#, C, and B on various things and he might well show up with all of them at gigs and use whichever one the other guys wanted him to use. No skin off his nose! He's playing the same thing regardless. For the other guys it might be as simple as moving their capos down a fret.

(I have one album where Liam is said to use a "B flat" chanter, but oftentimes pipers call their 'flat' chanters in B that, so I'd have to check the recording.)

[JR]

There was a documentary about planxty on TG4 some years ago.

Phil sold the rights and they were somewhat bitter towards it, even just to have control over re releases.

Some really basic things like song names, 'Claire' should be 'Clare' and so on.

Seems fitting that the songbook is equally poor.

[MTGuru]

Wouldn't surprise me if 1) the publishers thought Cunla was too high and wanted it brought down a bit or 2) the guys in Planxty thought Cunla was too high and, when Liam showed up at a gig with a C# chanter, asked him to use that one for that song, and a tape of such was provided to the transcriber.

Maybe, but I think you're over-thinking it. Occam's Razor suggests a typesetting error as a much more likely explanation. Especially if all the other songs in the book are in the proper keys. And as Peter said above, the Cúnla transcription is actually in the proper key if you substitute the right key signature.

Liam's used chanters in D, C#, C, and B on various things and he might well show up with all of them at gigs and use whichever one the other guys wanted him to use. No skin off his nose! He's playing the same thing regardless. For the other guys it might be as simple as moving their capos down a fret.

But on the first 3 Planxty albums released before the book's publication, I believe Liam plays only a concert D set on any of the tracks. And the point of the book was presumably to document the released tracks.

[Mr.Gumby]

But on the first 3 Planxty albums released before the book's publication, I believe Liam plays only a concert D set on any of the tracks. And the point of the book was presumably to document the released tracks.

Careful now!

He does play the Egan B on 'the Green Fields of America' and there might be something similar going on on (Andy Irivne's) 'As I roved out' if I remember correctly. And ,again from memory, the Jolly Beggar/Wise Maid a C chanter? But the book does seem to try to cover the songs and tunes in their original (i.e. recorded) keys. Which would place Cúnla/Frieze Breeches firmly in D.

[MTGuru]

Careful now!

Dammit, you're going to make me actually go and listen, aren't you.

Actually, prompted by this thread, revisiting the Planxty recordings has been a pleasure.

[MTGuru]

Planxty (1972)
02. Arthur McBride - B set
07. The Jolly Beggar (The Wise Maid) - B set

The Well Below the Valley (1973)
04. As I Roved Out - B set

Cold Blow and the Rainy Night (1974)
01. Johnny Cope - C set
10. The Green Fields of Canada - B set

[Michael Anderson]

Actually, prompted by this thread, revisiting the Planxty recordings has been a pleasure.

Glad to hear it!

[pancelticpiper]

Planxty (1972)
02. Arthur McBride - B set
07. The Jolly Beggar (The Wise Maid) - B set

The Well Below the Valley (1973)
04. As I Roved Out - B set

Cold Blow and the Rainy Night (1974)
01. Johnny Cope - C set
10. The Green Fields of Canada - B set

Very interesting!

I knew that Liam used a variety of chanters on various things over the years, but until you posted that I didn't realize to what extent he used 'flat' pipes with Planxty.

About him potentially using a different chanter for Cunla at some point, it's not overthinking, but the exact thing that happens all the time when performing with singers.

A singer might say "my voice is a bit scratchy today, let's take this song down a couple frets" and I take out my D chanter and pop in my C chanter.

I'll bet that with all the touring and live playing Planxty did that there were times that they performed songs in different keys than the keys that happened to end up on an album... say, on a song that Liam ordinarily used his ____ chanter on, but that particular day the reed wasn't going just right so he grabbed a different chanter and everybody moved their capos. It happens.

Or let's say Liam had just acquired a _____ chanter and everyone says "let's try _____ using that" and so a song ends up in a key it hadn't before. That happens too! It makes the song fresh for everybody.

Heck, I've even had singers forget what key they usually do a song it, and start it in a different key! Or maybe they start the next song but forgot to move their capo from the last song. So I have to grab a different chanter for my solo when it comes up, on the fly. That happens too, in live performing. (The fiddler, well, he doesn't have a capo and can't switch chanters! He's left in the lurch, sometimes.)

In other words, the keys that appear on albums aren't set in stone, even with the group that recorded the album.