Feadoggie wrote:Well there is stuff like this. Warning: you can't un-hear this. Metal heads with whistles, right?
Only you truly have the power, Feadoggie, to make coffee come out my nose on a Friday morning. That whistle playing was awesome - sounds like my little boy when he first picked up the recorder in Grade 2.
Isn't "Cruachan" the motto of Clan Campbell BTW? Weird in several ways...
"There has been too little concern lately with what is right and good, and more about what will bring individual power. It is hard to watch such idiocy and not feel angry."
Michael Anderson wrote:Only you truly have the power, Feadoggie, to make coffee come out my nose on a Friday morning. That whistle playing was awesome - sounds like my little boy when he first picked up the recorder in Grade 2.
That's why I had to add the warning.
Michael Anderson wrote:Isn't "Cruachan" the motto of Clan Campbell BTW? Weird in several ways...
Don't know. I thought it was a place name -a mountain maybe. Yes, weird in many ways. Glad I didn't link to a live performance video.
Didn't want to cause thread drift with that link. I just thought Sirchronique's observation on the thread title was great and it made me chuckle .... So....
Feadoggie
I've proven who I am so many times, the magnetic strips worn thin.
Steve, since your question is more about the material of the windway, my thoughts are that the material itself is mainly about 2 factors.
1. The resistance to airflow or drag which is mainly about the finish of the material (how smooth is the material which affects back pressure and turbulence). As previously mentioned, if the surface is pitted or rough it will cause turbulence in the airstream and produce an edgy tone, and if its like glass the airstream will flow easily with little turbulence and produce a clear tone.
2. If the material is absorbent and will hold moisture. If this is the case a thin layer of moisture will form and effectively reduce the size of the airway. This may be a concern for players who have a wet mouth and not an issue for others who have a dry mouth. I find with my very wet mouth I need an airway that is a couple of thousandths more open to give me an airflow that plays the same as a smaller airway for someone with a dry mouth.
Delrin does hold a small amount of moisture forming a very thin layer in the airway and as long as a player with a wet mouth accounts for this by choosing a whistle that has a bit more open airway, it is not a problem. Aluminum on the other hand, being more temperature sensitive, can easily build up a thin layer of moisture in the airway from ones warm breath and needs to be periodically blown out by the player with a wet mouth so may be more of a problem compared to Delrin. It most likely won't be a problem if the player is continuously playing the instrument keeping the head warm, but if the whistle sits a while a cools down that's when a re-warming of the head needs to happen.
As has been pointed out earlier in this thread the vertical measurement of an airway can greatly affect this moisture problem no matter what material is used. So as usual.... different strokes for different folks.
highland-piper wrote:But I suspect the point is that for any given design, aluminum, being a superior conductor, will always have more condensation, and therefore be more prone to clogging.
It all depends on the condensate, if the surfaces allow it to cling easily, or if it gets blown out. Only if the wind way is rather narrow in height can clogging occur. I never had clogging problems with the whistles I built, as attested by others. This is probably because the wind way is not too narrow in height, it is made very smooth, and the block is Delrin, which means the whole head warms up much faster than a whistle with a solid alu block.
So you are saying that you can put more breath condensate through the same windway and it might not increase the odds of causing a problem? That's interesting, but I'm having a hard time making it make sense to me. Interestingly I have found that since I started playing Highland pipes I no longer have any moisture issues with any whistles.
hans wrote:
I can't see that this is true at all. It takes a fair amount of time to make a whistle by hand, even more so if care is taken in fine and smooth finishing.
What I said is that people might /perceive/ plastic as cheaper. For the purpose of marketing, consumer perception /is/ reality, whether it's the truth or not.
highland-piper wrote:So you are saying that you can put more breath condensate through the same windway and it might not increase the odds of causing a problem? That's interesting, but I'm having a hard time making it make sense to me. Interestingly I have found that since I started playing Highland pipes I no longer have any moisture issues with any whistles.
If the windway is vertically not too narrow, condensation should not be a problem / no clogging occurs. The curved shape may also help though. The windway height on my whistles is between 1mm and 1.2mm (1mm on high whistles, 1.2mm on low whistles). This is a consequence of the choice of tubing (the wall thickness of the main tube), and seems to work well. But the surfaces of the windway need to be finished well as well, otherwise I may observe some clogging. On metal headed whistles with windway heights much smaller than a millimetre, say 0.8mm or less, you need to be more careful about potential clogging, warm the head up, and blow out the windway occasionally, as is common practise on Overton type whistles. Those whistles have a straight windway as well (no curvature from side to side), but I am not sure how much this contributes to possible clogging issues. OTOH the solid alu block does, as it keeps the head cooler.
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Michael Anderson wrote:Isn't "Cruachan" the motto of Clan Campbell BTW? Weird in several ways...
Don't know. I thought it was a place name -a mountain maybe.
It's both... war cry of the Campbells and a beautiful mountain (range) just down the road from here. Though (something I never knew) some sources suggest that the cry didn't come from the mountain...
I did some reading after my last post. That band was deep into Irish folklore - and other mythical/mystical stuff. Apparently Cruachan in their meaning is derived from the place we now call Rathcroghan in Roscommon, another hill/mount altogether, which is felt to be the home and seat of power for Queen Maedbh in the Ulster Cycle. Fun reading anyway.
Feadoggie
I've proven who I am so many times, the magnetic strips worn thin.
Re clogging - Hans - you build and play whistles daily and I don't doubt the validity of your experience. It's puzzling for me as I've two aluminum low D whistles - one has a vertical windway height of 1.63 mm, and the other .96 mm. The lower windway cloggs much less than the taller windway. My thinking has been less air traveling through the lower windway equates to less condensation. However I realize there are other variables besides ww height. The taller windway is polished aluminum and the lower windway is anodized, which I suspect is not as smooth as the polished one. This is tough for me as I love the tone of the anodized whistle but the clogging gets me crazy (I'm a wet blower) If the less smooth surface of the anodizing contributes to the tone then I'm stuck !
retired wrote: If the less smooth surface of the anodizing contributes to the tone then I'm stuck !
I would be tempted to use some very fine (800 and/or 1200 grit) metal sanding paper on the inside of the windway. Cut a strip and fold it, so it has two or three layers of paper, and fits into the windway. Then smooth the thing carefully, by pushing an dpulling from the tip end side only, and not interfering with the labium. Test and see.
Hans - I've used toothpaste on my all aluminum non-anodized whistle to get rid of oxidation and smooth out the windway and it definately reduced clogging, but I'm reluctant to do it to my anodized whistle if making it smoother changes the tone.
Peter Duggan wrote:
It's both... war cry of the Campbells and a beautiful mountain (range) just down the road from here. Though (something I never knew) some sources suggest that the cry didn't come from the mountain...
Beautiful! thanks Peter, and Feadoggie for more details on the band.
"There has been too little concern lately with what is right and good, and more about what will bring individual power. It is hard to watch such idiocy and not feel angry."
Michael Anderson wrote:Beautiful! thanks ..... Feadoggie for more details on the band.
I am not a fan. I am not a fan. I am not a fan .....
I do enjoy reading the Irish sagas though.
retired wrote:I've used toothpaste on my all aluminum non-anodized whistle to get rid of oxidation and smooth out the windway and it definately reduced clogging,
I always thought the toothpaste treatment was less about polishing and smoothing and more about the chemistry. Toothpastes generally contain sodium lauryl sulfate which is a surfactant, among other attributes. That should hopefully reduce the surface tension on the treated area and help the condensation bead up to move along easier and not collect where you do not want it to accumulate. Sodium lauryl sulfate is also found in Dupanol and most dish detergents. The toothpaste is merely a better tasting alternative to the other products. But maybe I'm misinformed.
Feadoggie
I've proven who I am so many times, the magnetic strips worn thin.
Feadoggie - I wondered about that also, but in another thread Colin G. said he recommended that treatment to clear oxide and gunk - the toothpaste acting as a mild abrasive.
Feadoggie wrote:I am not a fan. I am not a fan. I am not a fan .....
Feadoggie
Oh, don't worry, I knew that! Was anyone? Their girlfriends maybe...
"There has been too little concern lately with what is right and good, and more about what will bring individual power. It is hard to watch such idiocy and not feel angry."
Feadoggie wrote:I always thought the toothpaste treatment was less about polishing and smoothing and more about the chemistry.
No, retired is right, it's about the polishing. If you re-read that famous thread ... Those of us with the clogging problem had tried Duponol many times with poor, very temporary results. The toothpaste removes (abrades) oxide and micro irregularities which act as condensation sites. And the resulting improvement is long-lasting.
Feadoggie wrote:Sodium lauryl sulfate is also found in Dupanol and most dish detergents. The toothpaste is merely a better tasting alternative to the other products.
Well, Duponol is pure sodium lauryl sulfate. And it's completely tasteless. So I guess toothpaste is an improvement only if you like the taste of the toothpaste.
