Goldie / Overton clogging problem (and solution)

[narrowdog]

I've always used the washing up liquid technique in the past
usually once a month and it gives the whistles a good clean too.
I can usuall tell when it's wearing off and give it a top up.

I've just tryed the tooth paste technique on a medium blower
high D and straight off it seems to work.

I perposefully didn't warm the whistle and played through
'Shepton Mallet Hornpipe' twice with no apparent clogging although there's probably plenty round Shepton Mallet
I did notice the condensation on the fipple block chamfer was there but
just a smooth layer and not the usual beading.

Now I've just tryed the same on a medium/easy blower low D.
Same tune played through twice and no clogging and no obvious condensation either.

And for scientific purposses it's not overly warm here today, the fire's on but I've
got the front and side doors open to give the place an air so it's about 10deg celsius.

[Mikethebook]

Wonderful. Glad to hear it. I'm wondering whether, because toothpaste is "drier" than washing up liquid, it leaves a better film of surfactant, more long-lasting. And because it is a gentle abrasive it will polish the inside of the windway making it even smoother, not that I believe it is not smooth to begin.

I'm wondering whether unfairly Goldies get much of the flack about clogging because they are popular and because generally-speaking they have higher backpressure than most other whistles. Even Colin's softblowers have a medium amount of backpressure so we're talking about whistles with very shallow windways where there is perhaps greater risk of clogging. But one only has to run through the reviews of low whistles on Piper's Grip http://pipersgrip.50webs.com/Instrument%20Reviews.html to see that similar designs with a flat windway, like the old Chieftains, have the same issue. I could mention others. And as MTGuru suggests water is more prone to bead on metal than on a plastic surface. My Optima with a plastic head has a similar windway but is much less prone to clogging. I don't imagine giving it the toothpaste treatment.

I wouldn't swop my Goldie for anything . . . except another Goldie. Having sorted out what the "problem" is, I recognise that the design perhaps does make it more prone to clogging than a whistle with a deeper or curved windway . . . but then it's the Goldie sound I want, like so many professionals and having discovered what Colin does at the outset, it is no longer an issue for me . . . and I'm thankful for that.

I would like to hear what MTGuru thinks about my comments though; I'm open to other thoughts.

[ecohawk]

I don't have a problem with clogging unless I've been drinking something warm while playing. I learned that lesson long ago from playing recorders outside where "sucking back" is the normal solution (no pun intended). Now I only drink whiskey or beer when playing . But that's another story.

Toothpaste/soft wood polishing makes a lot of sense to me. We all know that even aluminum whistles suffer from tarnish - simply taking a little light polish to the exterior proves this by how shiny they become. It makes complete sense to me that breath condensation and even tiny particles of food or dust that accumulates in the windway would create some level of tarnish. Soap is going to clean the chunky stuff but wouldn't touch tarnish while light polishing from the mildest abrasive likely would without affecting windway dimensions.

I did not try it yet on my Goldie but I did just now on my alto G Harper with the same windway/blade design and I'm surprised at the difference in the clarity of tone. Harper, like Goldie, has a more traditional sound so I would expect a similar result. It sounds like it used to.

Thanks for the tip,
ecohawk

[hoopy mike]

Now I'm a pretty good and experienced player myself, with around 100 whistles and such in my arsenal...

I love the idea of a whistle arsenal, although for some reason I dislike it when folk refer to a whistle as "their main weapon".

I'm not particularly a "wet blower"...

...says the guy with the toad avatar.

[Feadoggie]

...says the guy with the toad avatar.

Right, that's a Hypno-toad not a Hypno-frog.

Maybe you distinguish things differently on that side of the pond. But the toads are the "dry" variety over here. Just sayin...

[AngelicBeaver]

I'm so glad I asked this. For the record, Colin said he personally would not use floss. I do wash out my whistles fairly regularly, so it's very likely I washed off any helpful residue. At the same time, I play all the time, multiple times per day, so it could be that I get more stuff in the windway faster than usual. I'm going to go get some toothpaste and try it out. My biggest issue has been what MTguru was talking about, where, no matter how long I've been playing (hence a warmed whistle) and how much I blow out the moisture, the whistle still clogs or sounds buzzy, like it isn't fully clear. When I check the bevel, there are drops of moisture seconds after I started playing again. I finally gave it a good wash with soap in the school bathroom and that seemed to help, so I can see particulates causing issues quite easily. I'm excited about toothpaste.

[Mikethebook]

Let me know how you get on . . . and do polish the bevel and block wall with toothpaste using a cotton bud. I can't emphasize that enough. Glad to be of help though it's all from Colin, not me.

[bogman]

MT Guru, I think we'll have to agree to disagree as my Goldies don't clog unless I'm careless. Has anyone seen Brian Finnegan stop playing because of a clogged whistle for example?

[MTGuru]

MT Guru, I think we'll have to agree to disagree as my Goldies don't clog unless I'm careless. Has anyone seen Brian Finnegan stop playing because of a clogged whistle for example?

I don't think we even need to disagree, bogman. Because your Goldies are not all Goldies, and neither are Brian's (with whom I've talked about his whistles). And I don't doubt that yours (and his) may be fine. But mine are not, and neither are at least some others. You can't extrapolate from your personal sample, no more than it's fair to say they're all bad based on mine.

The thing is .... When you do have a clogger, the physical and tonal symptoms are consistent - whether you've been playing for 2 weeks or 50+ years like me. And in my case, player error is simply not the issue.

Another case: A good friend of mine, also very experienced, recently had a film soundtrack recording session nearly ruined by his Goldie F. The score called for passages of long, sustained, legato notes. And the whistle couldn't make it through any phrase without suddenly clogging in mid-note. He ended up switching to a Susato, and now plays an MK F - which I tested last night and, no, it doesn't clog.

To be fair, my high D is not so bad at all, and I've played it successfully in sessions. But my low D is effectively unusable.

So like Angelic Beaver, I'm excited about the toothpaste (5 words I never thought I'd say!). Because I do like the whistles, and I really like and respect Colin and Brigitte. The high D has a unique, gutsy sound. And I think the Goldie low D and F are the definitive low whistle sounds, and the standard by which I judge others. So I would really enjoy playing mine for more than 10 seconds at a time.

[Mikethebook]

I think the Goldie low D and F are the definitive low whistle sounds

I agree which is why I wouldn't give up. Let us know how you get on with the toothpaste. Here's hoping you have success with it.

[Tunborough]

But I have noticed this: When my Goldie begins to clog, the beads of moisture that form in the windway and near the windway exit always tend to be located at the same spots. And normal blowing doesn't dislodge them, but adds more condensation to those spots.

Oxidation (tarnish). We are talking brass here, right?

The oxidation attracts moisture, that moisture attracts more moisture. Wax might help keep the moisture away from the tarnish, if the coating is thorough enough, but as noted earlier wax may have its own problems. Metal polish will remove the tarnish, and toothpaste is one of the few metal polishes you'd want to stick in your mouth.

Once you get rid of the tarnish, you may want to take steps to delay its return: avoiding corrosive substances in your mouth when you're playing, removing excess moisture from the windway when you're done, etc. I'm not sure whiskey and beer are positive influences.

[Mikethebook]

No, we're talking aluminium (or aluminum ) not brass. As I understand it, aluminium oxide is different from brass tarnishing and gives a very tough outer layer to aluminium that you don't want to get rid of. But I totally agree when you say that:

toothpaste is one of the few metal polishes you'd want to stick in your mouth.

Anorther big plus for the method.

[Tunborough]

No, we're talking aluminium (or aluminum ) not brass. As I understand it, aluminium oxide is different from brass tarnishing and gives a very tough outer layer to aluminium that you don't want to get rid of.

You're right. Different beast entirely.

Now I'm curious to know what is attracting the moisture.

[bogman]

I know my Goldies are not all Goldies MT, and I don't doubt there are some troublesome ones but I have 16 of them varying in age from a year old to Colins earlier whistles so it's not an insignificant sample. Maybe it's got something to do with individuals being suited to certain whistles and the most sensible thing for folk having problems is to have an open mind on it and take whatever preventative measures possible. Maybe a better way of me putting things is to say people new to Goldies shouldn't be surprised if they clog but the more you put into them the easier they get.

[bogman]

Another thought is that maybe playing style has a bit to do with it. Goldies seem to suit Scottish players very well, many of the players come from the piping tradition and you very rarely see any of the well known players here playing anything but Goldies or MKs. In fact I'm not aware of anyone here who plays a Burke or a Kerry. I know players that have had a Burke and replaced them with a Goldie but not the other way round. It seems that Irish players play a wider variety of whistles so maybe the style has some bearing on things.