If it were you, A New Low D or a New Low F?

[usfenderfsdlx]

DFernandez: Well noted. This is an interesting point, because I expect some others will look at things exactly the other way around. We'll see what else comes up as the thread goes on. That should be interesting.

Thomston: That's awesome. I'm more of a cat person myself, but I've always like Weimaraners. Samoyeds (sp?) too.

Right you are

I have an old friend that over analyzes things.
He'd beat this until it was too late to get either.

He quit speaking to me, again, about six years ago.
I'm hoping he shows up next summer.

We're gettin' old enough that next time he will not have time....

I definitely over-analyze purchases, but typically only when I'm very short on funds and "this is it," and I'm just kind of stuck with the decision I make for a while. If I had a few thousand dollars, heck--this thread wouldn't exist right now. I'd be thinking, "Ah, I'm going to try some whistle and see how it goes."

You should be nice to your over-analytical friends! I was going to give some useful advice on dealing with over-analytical people because I am sometimes over-analytical and hey, I should know, right? But then I realized that if I knew how to help over-analytical-ness, then I would never be over-analytical. So I actually don't have much useful advice for helping to cure your friend. I do know that when I'm in over-analytical mode (when I both need something and have just the resources to get it) I just want to hear peoples opinions, one way or the other. It helps me sort out what I'm really thinking and wanting for myself, and then I come to a firm decision. Interesting process. As I read people's opinions, I notice how they make me feel and that helps me figure out what I really want. Ugh.

When it comes down to where to live, what job to take/not to take, what gigs to take, what bands to join, what clothes to buy, where to go to school, guitars, amps, flutes, and recording gear, in these cases I can be very decisive. It's just these whistles. Geese. I'm actually also super-analytical when it comes to writing and audio engineering/production. This is helpful in those fields though. But buying a whistle I've never played when I have just enough resources to get that one thing and I have two whistles to upgrade? That just presses all of my over-analytical buttons. Gets me running on all 12 analytical cylinders.

Ok. That's enough. Welcome to the analytical mind. Hope this helps you with your friend.

[mutepointe]

I didn't even bother reading but a few comments. Buy the Goldie Low D. You'll use it more. Sell both the Susatos and get yourself a Low F that you can live with.

[Denny]

Welcome to the analytical mind. Hope this helps you with your friend.

No help at all!

It is not at all like I'm not analytical. It is more that my friend is a double Cancer w/ Taurus rising and I'm a double Leo w/ Libra rising.

Mute's suggestion is dead on!

[MTGuru]

Something obvious no one has said yet: If your Susato F is flat at the top, then there's simply something wrong with it. The fipple geometry is off, or there's a blockage somewhere, or a manufacturing error in the tube. This is not normal, certainly not for a Susato, which is known for its accurate intonation.

The first thing I would do is bring it to the attention of Mike or George Kelischek. They're very good about standing behind their instruments, and they can recommend repair or replacement.

You don't say if the F is M-bore or L-bore. The closest I have is the M-bore G whistle, and the intonation is spot on. If you have another whistle body, try swapping and test if the problem recurs. That can help you pin things down.

I'll bet you're not using the Susato O-ring tweak. It calms the upper notes, and may make it possible to push them into tune without being too loud or harsh. A #15 ring (3/4 inch inside diameter) fits the M head nicely. I'm not sure about the L head. You might also need to adjust your embouchure, if that's something you don't normally think about.

In a way, it seems unfair to condemn the Susato F to replacement without first giving it a chance to perform as it should. If I were you, I'd ignore the poll, because I think the premise is flawed.

Of course, opting for a Goldie because you want the more complex sound, backpressure, etc. is perfectly legit. That's a personal choice. I own a Goldie low D, and have tested a Goldie low F at some length. Both are among the "gold standard" whistles in these keys, IMO.

[hoopy mike]

Something obvious no one has said yet: If your Susato F is flat at the top, then there's simply something wrong with it.

Or maybe it's the way you're playing it. Maybe get a more experienced low whistler to try out your whistle for you before you write it off as defective.

[mutepointe]

Something obvious no one has said yet: If your Susato F is flat at the top, then there's simply something wrong with it.

Or maybe it's the way you're playing it. Maybe get a more experienced low whistler to try out your whistle for you before you write it off as defective.

Oh. Oh. No you didn't.

[dfernandez77]

*chuckle*
all y'all crack me up.

[usfenderfsdlx]

Hoopy Mike: I'm plenty experienced. Still learning, not a "pro" yet, but by all means: I know how to play the instrument with good tone and intonation throughout its range.

I know how to adjust my embouchure to effect the tone and tuning, I know how to make top notes sound sweet and strong by tightening my embouchure, not by trying to blow harder with a loose gob, blah blah blah. (I also play flute.) Furthermore, if you listened to the clips I referenced, the Arlene Syl clips were recorded more than a year ago, when I was only a few months old to the low whistle. The Clips on my own site were recorded within the last 6 months, although the whistle is less of a feature there. Listen to both; I hope they help put this issue into perspective a bit. As a general rule, I think it's good to go listen to a player before you pass unwarranted criticisms against that one's ability to the play the instrument. If you don't have access to any clips, just assume nice things about the player. You only have the place to positively correct if you know the person and have heard their playing. Negative "reinforcement" is the bane of developing musicians. For instance, MT assumed that if I was setting my sights on a Goldie, that I was experienced enough to play a whistle--really, a very simple instrument--in tune. That was a nice assumption to make, made out of courtesy, whether he's heard me or not.



Anyway! On with it! The top notes mentioned are out of tune to an extent that can't be helped. Take my word for it. I mentioned before in this thread that I own a lot of susatos (and other whistles too, in higher keys) that I can play perfectly in tune throughout the full range. In my own defense, let me say that my Susato low D is a touch sharp in the top of the second octave. Not sharp enough that it sounds bad, only 4 or 5 cents. I play both whistles the same way. It's the whistle.

MTGuru: I also had an M sized G, and it was wonderfully in tune as well. The F is an L size. I think the tuning problem may have something to do with that. I also like the tone of the Goldies more, and I think I would like how they play more. I want a touch more backpressure than the Susatos had. Also, I play reverse and the wholes on my F are offset to the right, which is troublesome for me. The F whistle is a dublin, btw. Fixed, non-adjustable. MTGuru, I am likewise convinced that the Goldie D and F are brilliant whistles. I plan to get both. I may also get C and E, but I might get cheaper models in those keys, since they are less often used and seem to me to be less jig-oriented keys and better for slow stuff. Thus I could probably get cheaper whistles in those keys that still work great for slower stuff.

[MTGuru]

One of the problems with the "one head fits all" approach - i.e. one head designed for multiple whistle bodies - is that there's often a "sweet spot" of bore size and length that only one of the whistle keys actually meets. The other tubes are necessarily compromises. So it may be the L bore that works well for low D is wonky on the F, with the particular fipple voicing on your Dublin (and Susato voicing can be inconsistent) and your particular playing technique. It's too bad yours is fixed, so you can't swap heads.

Other examples ... There's a lot of anecdotal evidence (including mine) that the S head + C body is the sweet combo. My M head feels slightly more at home on the G body than on the A, though both work well. Will be interesting to try the F body sometime. I've also played an L-bore in G, and didn't like it. Took too much air, intonation hard to pin down, felt too fat for the pitch.

I wouldn't take Hoopy Mike's comment so defensively. All he's suggesting is to have someone else check your instrument as a second opinion. There's always someone better and more experienced than you (or me), and I never hesitate to rely on fellow players for hands-on input if I think there's something wrong, even if I think I'm right. I almost always learn something in the process.

Cheers and good luck!

P.S. I did look at your YouTube vids, and don't see anything obvious in your technique. So it's probably just a wonky whistle. Of course, if instead of buying that Goldie you want to fly me out to Nashville, I'll be happy to check it out.

[usfenderfsdlx]

Ugh, the youtube videos!

I have to take those down. Some sloppy playing there!

Yeah, I think the F is just outside of the optimal Bore-to-Length ratio. I think the M-bore F would be too quiet for my tastes. Even the M-size G was too quiet for my tastes, as amazing as it sounded. I'll have to get another one of those, just for studio stuff. I sold it a while ago. I had a Susato S-bore C that I gave away. I loved it. I used it on one recording that I'll post to the forums when the mix is done. It sounded really good. The engineer was flipping out. I'll have to get another one of those.

Point taken about not getting too defensive. I'll just count to ten next time.

[Adrian]

...t there's often a "sweet spot" of bore size and length that only one of the whistle keys actually meets.

I agree and for the M bore Susato I think the F is the 'sweet spot' in that range. It is a great sounding whistle.

FWIW IMHO the S bore 'sweet spot' is the B, though the Db and the C are nice as well. The VS bore range has Eb as the 'sweet spot', though the D is good also.

Hope you find the whistles you need.

[hoopy mike]

Hoopy Mike: I'm plenty experienced....the clips I referenced, the Arlene Syl clips were recorded more than a year ago, when I was only a few months old to the low whistle..

So you've been playing for what, almost two years?

I've listened to the clips and I definitely think you should get another whistler to have a go. That's just my opinion. But I guess you didn't ask for that sort of advice, so to answer your initial question, buy a new low D and a low F. I doesn't really matter what order you make your purchases, so flip a coin.

[MTGuru]

for the M bore Susato I think the F is the 'sweet spot' in that range. It is a great sounding whistle.

FWIW IMHO the S bore 'sweet spot' is the B

So now I'm going to have to get the F and B bodies? Blast you, Adrian.

Actually, every year at the tionól here they end up doing a flat piping session in B. And every year I kick myself for not having a B whistle. So maybe Santa will be kind to me.

[Mick Down Under]

I voted for the F, simply because if it were me, I would go for the F.


Mick

[usfenderfsdlx]

Thanks Mick.

Hoopy Mike: It seems like you're trying to be offensive, and if you're not, you should let me know. As per MT's suggestion, I'm not going to get into self-defense mode, as tempting as it is.

Anyway, despite all the off-topic banter by myself and others, and the jabs at my ability to play the instrument, I've been feeling like the F is the right choice. Even before the tie was broken, when two people had said to get the D and one person had said to get the F and they had all explained their reasoning, I knew I resonated more with the suggestion to get the F.