Chiff?

[Wanderer]

How the term is used here varies.

Yes it does. But it shouldn't.

The above definition from Feadoggie is correct. On a whistle, chiff is the transient "chirp" or attack that occurs at the beginning of a note when you move from one note to another using continuous breath, or start a note with a push of the breath.

Chiff is not breathiness, or scratchiness, or reediness, or tonal complexity. It's the chirp, and considered very desirable by many players as one of the key characteristics of the traditional Irish whistle sound.

In my experience, a good rule-of-thumb test for the overall chiffiness of a whistle is the note sequence d to B (2nd octave d to 1st octave B) using the following fingerings: xxxxxx -> xooxxx.

If you can produce a distinct chirp with this test, chances are that the whistle will produce a similar chirp on other chiffy note transtions.

Unfortunately, here on the board I almost never trust mentions of chiff or chiffiness unless accompanied by a clarification of "chirp" or "transient" or the like. Otherwise, there's no guarantee that the term is being used correctly.

Chiff & Fipple - FAQ

Denny, I'm afraid that description is part of the problem. It implies that chiff is vague and hard to define. It's not ... see above.

I agree

[Denny]

me too.....

wasn't the point

[tegea]

Could someone post some sound clips of a couple of notes comparing :
- a whistle with chiff
- a whistle with no chiff

[free-feet]

Sorry, i just feel like splitting a few hairs today.

Chiff on a pipe organ can be easily ascertained as the pipes are driven by a compressor of some sort. Each compressor will be set at a given pressure and have a set volume reservoir for that air, therefore giving a pre-determined amount of chiff on any given pipe.

So how can anyone pick up a whistle and determine the amount of chiff on any given note when firstly, the air pressure being driven into the whistle at any given time is variable and determined by each player's diaphragm power, and also the reservoir for that air, the lungs, is also different between each given player and changes all the time throughout playing. And the variance of the lung capacity also impacts upon the power of the diaphragm at any given time.

Also players of wind instruments will know that they continuously vary the attack on each note they play, which again impacts greatly on the amount of chiff achieved in doing so.

Ergo, chiff is therefore, in my opinion, an entirely subjective thing and really not worth the time of day mentioning when referring to a whistle.

If one person believes their whistle to be chiffy, then who is anyone else to argue?

[y-nought]

So...the Chiff that can be named is not the True Chiff?

I am a total noob and I am really enjoying this discussion. I am curious also about the USE of Chiff.

It is my understanding that a cut, or a cran, and maybe even a tap should consist more of chiff and less of the tone of the cutting note (I might be talking about stylistic preference here). So chiff can be used as an articulation...and that's what sets it apart from a grace note. At least with ITM.

Am I on the right track here?

y-nought

[Feadoggie]

Ergo, chiff is therefore, in my opinion, an entirely subjective thing and really not worth the time of day mentioning when referring to a whistle.

I see what you are saying, free-feet, and I agree with much of what you are saying but I don't know that I would "Ergo" where you go, so to speak.
You are right that organ pipes are designed to exhibit the characteristic of chiff or not. And I would agree that because of the variable input the player provides that chiff isn't always going to be heard in transitions from note to note. Whistles don't have chiff unless the players makes it happen. Some whistles create the chiff more readily than others.

But I do think that chiff is a sign of a well designed and usually a well played whistle. Chiff isn't the point of playing the whistle but it adds a nice definition to many passages when the whistle is played. I've heard good players say "that whistle has a lot of pop". I usually think they are talking about the chiff. MTGuru used the term "chirp". Joanie Madden uses that term as well.

Feadoggie

[free-feet]

I can accept the term chirp, or pop, just not chiff in most cases.

Example i would use is as MT says, going down from a D to a B. Now i don't think this can possibly be conceived as chiff, if chiff is the specific sound made at the start of an organ pipe being made to sound.

The organ pipe is not resonating when the air is put in, therefore the only back-pressure you get is from the resistance of the pipe itself. The chiff sound is between that initial input and when the pipe hits its resonant frequency and creates full impedance to add to the resistance in the back-pressure. But if you're sliding down from a D to a B on a whistle the whistle is already at full resonance at the D and will have more impedance than what it will have resonating at a B, so therefore, in my mind, that cannot be considered chiff at all. Chirp or pop, yes, chiff, no.

[dryer]

Anybody who has heard a steamboat or locomotive whistle has heard "chiff". It comes on in a "chuuuff" sound before the whistle actually resonates a note, and some whistles end in the same 'chuff' sound. It's really evident on a real steam powered calliope....I remember the one on the Belle of Louisville, which I think is still going.
I've always thought it was caused by the steam valve being a ways downstream and the latency of steam expanding into the whistle. I love the sound.
I hear it on my low D whistle and can control it. High whistles aren't as noticeable, maybe just a millisecond before the note starts....which probably has more to do with airway design. (wide, narrow, tapered, curved etc.)
My dad spent some years tuning pipe organs. Modern organs have very fast valving, right under the banks of pipes. I've only heard a "click" on older organs and wouldn't describe that as "chiff".

[MTGuru]

Ah, I see the confusion here. A whistle is not an organ pipe of course, and the organ pipe definition is too narrow. In broad terms, chiff is simply the non-harmonic or inharmonic transient that occurs at the start of a note. And on a whistle there are two different ways that can occur; in effect, two different kinds of chiff.

The first is identical to the organ pipe. Finger a note, then blow it. The physics of transient impedance apply as described.

The second has to do with the whistle as a harmonic noise generator (head) coupled to a multi-resonant tube. When you move from one non-consecutive note to another by lifting a finger or fingers, there is a transition between when the holes under the lifted fingers are fully closed and fully open. During the transition, the partly open holes act as node taps, similar to the octave or register holes on other wind instruments. The whistle resonance is momentarily driven to sound a cluster of higher harmonic multiples until the pitch stabilizes again in the new fingering. It's this momentary inharmonic squawk which is perceived as the chirp or chiff.

The d to B is a good example. As the T3 finger (G finger) lifts off, you open the node of the next highest harmonic of the d - the high a - which momentarily sounds. Then as you lift the T2 finger (A finger), you momentarily hear something like a flat Bb, with with lots of scratchy upper harmonic noise, depending on your breath pressure at that moment. As T2 fully opens, the noise then gives way to the stable B pitch. It's the high a + scratchy squawk that gives this particular transition its chiffy chirp.

[free-feet]

The d to B is a good example. As the T3 finger (G finger) lifts off, you open the node of the next highest harmonic of the d - the high a - which momentarily sounds. Then as you lift the T2 finger (A finger), you momentarily hear something like a flat Bb, with with lots of scratchy upper harmonic noise, depending on your breath pressure at that moment. As T2 fully opens, the noise then gives way to the stable B pitch. It's the high a + scratchy squawk that gives this particular transition its chiffy chirp.

When i play this on my Sindt (with Cillian Imp. tube) i simply get... "d a# b B" played using lazy fingering. Of course, i can make the a# and b as scratchy or clear as i like by varying my breath pressure, as can anyone with a little breath control. I simply don't see how you can term this as chiff at all.

[rhulsey]

The d to B is a good example. As the T3 finger (G finger) lifts off, you open the node of the next highest harmonic of the d - the high a - which momentarily sounds. Then as you lift the T2 finger (A finger), you momentarily hear something like a flat Bb, with with lots of scratchy upper harmonic noise, depending on your breath pressure at that moment. As T2 fully opens, the noise then gives way to the stable B pitch. It's the high a + scratchy squawk that gives this particular transition its chiffy chirp.

As an organbuilder and voicer, chiff isn't a word I've used a lot over the years except to refer to the articulate attack of (generally) wooden pipes, and even then they are often in a more baroque style instrument. Principal pipes, which are the typical pipe organ sound, depending on the style of the organ, can be articulate which does indeed define the musical line, and if not out of control and really clanky, can be quite beautiful. Removing the articulation is done in various ways, but generally at cost to the sustained tone that you may be trying to achieve.

Maybe that sounds like there aren't many hard and fast rules, and that's certainly the case. A well engineered mechanical action organ will allow you to vary the speech of the pipes to some degree with how you play the keys, resulting in chiff (if present) or not. And you can also on occasion hear articulation when moving from one note to another, when you might not hear it otherwise. That said, I'd say MTGuru's understanding of chiff is a fair and quite reasonable definition.

I've owned a great many whistles of the past few years, and a Michael Grinter D had the most pleasant articulation I think I have run across. I happen to like Pat O'Riordan's work because it is fairly non-chiffy (to my ears) and smoother.

My 2 cents...

Reg

[MTGuru]

When i play this on my Sindt (with Cillian Imp. tube) i simply get... "d a# b B" played using lazy fingering. Of course, i can make the a# and b as scratchy or clear as i like by varying my breath pressure, as can anyone with a little breath control. I simply don't see how you can term this as chiff at all.

Well, I'm just answering the OP question, not arguing definitions, and describing whistle chiff as understood by experienced whistle players and makers.

The d-to-B test is a test because not every whistle will manifest it equally. A Generation or Feadóg, for example, will produce a distinct chirp. I can't speak to your hybrid Sindt - though if memory serves me, a standard Sindt D is fairly chiffy. Given a particular whistle head, a maker can tailor a whistle's chiff by the size and placement of the the toneholes. So the physical layout of the tube definitely matters.

Slow finger articulation won't produce chiff; it needs to be fast, crisp and clean. That's part of learning to "play the chiff". I'm not sure how you're getting a 2nd octave a# and b in your example. With proper breath control, only the 1st octave A# and B should sound. Try it again with fast fingering and a bit of breath push. Nearly every whistle I've played will exhibit some degree of chirp.

[Ted]

In certain ranks of organ pipes, with a whistle-like speaking part, chiff can be controlled by putting small nicks on the edge of the air outlet. A "nicked" organ, such as a romantic organ, has little or no chiff. An "un-nicked", such as a baroque organ, will have considerable chiff. This is completely a mechanical effect which can be built into certain ranks or not, depending on the style of voicing required.

[free-feet]

Hi MT

What you're saying is exactly the point i'm trying to make.

Yes i can play the whistle to make it sound the lower octave on those notes using breath control, or the second octave, or the scratchy noise between the octaves. My point is that what you're hearing is not chiff but just those notes being played fast, almost like the grace notes in a roll which don't quite sound properly unless you play them slowly, but they're not chiff either.

As i say, i can accept the term chirp being applied to whistles in this regard as some whistles do make these notes chirpier than others, but these are completely different acoustic effects from chiff.

I understand that chiff is the term used by a lot of people, but i personally do not think it correct to label two entirely different acoustic effects as the same thing.

I think Ted has hit the nail on the head. By altering the air outlet into the pipe you adjust the difference between the resistance and impedance within the back-pressure of the pipe thus altering the chiff of the pipe. Which is what i pointed to in my first post on this thread which no one, as yet, has bothered to discuss.

[SamWise]

More and more and more worms. I'm pleased there's no real disagreement as to what constitutes a fipple. It's definitely either the wooden plug in the end of an old-school whistle, or the plastic mouthpiece on a newer style one, and no mistake about it.