Sindt Cnat question

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
User avatar
Azalin
Posts: 2783
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Montreal, Canada
Contact:

Post by Azalin »

Guinness wrote:
Azalin wrote:
jloug wrote:It is VERY easy to half hole a cnat on a Sindt D.
Well, convince me by recording a, let's say, reel in G with good tempo on that whistle. *Then* you can say it's easy. If you say it's easy because you can put your finger on the B hole, half hole it and play a CNat... sorry, that's not good enough.
I don't regularly half-hole for C-nat unless I want to bend the note but I do half-hole for F-nat for a few tunes and at high tempos. The problem is repeatibility (tuning and tone), which is more difficult to learn if you keep switching instruments. Anyways, if a fiddler can play all her notes in tune without frets, then why can't a whistler do it for 1 or 2?

Listen to Mary Bergin play F-nat appregios in the C section of the Flogging Reel:
http://www.amazon.com/Feadoga-Stain-2-M ... B000000E87
I never doubted the CNat or any note *can* be half holed with great efficiency. I simply doubt *anyone* on Chiff can do it well enough. Mary Bergin was busy practicing and playing while we were busy writing on the Chiff board ;-)
emtor
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:18 am

Post by emtor »

Half-holing can be done by keeping your finger at an angle at the fingerhole.
Breda Smyth does that when playing a D/D sharp sequence . . . <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av2bKHgYurU" target="_blank"> like this</a>
It's not that hard, even I can do it, despite hanging around here a lot :)
User avatar
Rob Sharer
Posts: 1682
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:32 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Either NC, Co. Clare, or Freiburg i.B., depending...

Post by Rob Sharer »

Regarding half-holing:

Just because I can do it, doesn't mean I want to. I have to say, tuning on the Cnat is the toad in the punchbowl on the Sindt whistles, which I otherwise find to be really great. Call me lazy, but I just don't feel like changing my technique to suit the whistle. Wouldn't that be backwards, anyway? It's a tool, made to suit the player. I would greatly prefer that the Cnat be available with what I consider the standard fingering.

I feel a bit queasy discussing this here, before I've made mention of it to John. However, it seems to be a common enough view, so I don't suppose it's too scandalous. At some stage, I intend to discuss it with the man himself. Anyone ever get his word on the subject? Cheers,

Rob
User avatar
MTGuru
Posts: 18663
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: San Diego, CA

Post by MTGuru »

emtor wrote:Half-holing can be done by keeping your finger at an angle at the fingerhole.
Breda Smyth does that when playing a D/D sharp sequence . . . <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av2bKHgYurU" target="_blank"> like this</a>
Sure it can. Unfortunately, I don't see any evidence in Breda's YouTube clip to indicate her finger position. Fingering d# in the sequences |~e2^df e| or |e^def gfef| that she plays in Bachelor's Walk can be done easily with the tip of the finger, the side of the finger, the knuckle ... whatever. Of course, this doesn't invalidate your point that it can be done as you describe.

But that's a very different matter from half-holing C-nat, for both mechanical and musical reasons. There's no physical support issue when playing d#. And the d# is usually an accidental to the mode of the tune; whereas the C-nat usually occurs as a scale note of the tune, with more rigorous requirements of both intonation and ease of execution.

I'd love to hear a personal clip of, say, The Graf Spee played up to speed (around mm=110) on a D whistle using only half-holed C-nats. Any takers? I'm sure it can be done, but with what I'd consider great difficulty.

As for the Sindt ... I've tried several Sindt D's, and they're lovely whistles. I was even surprised to be able to produce a very acceptable oxxxox C-nat on at least one of them. That said, I consider the Sindt's lack of a good cross-fingered C-nat by design to be an outright flaw or defect, thus making it a defective whistle. And I don't understand the maker's apparent reluctance to address the problem, especially when some others will bend over backwards to accommodate player preferences. A wacky workaround involving non-standard fingering and/or lighter breath is hardly user-friendly.

Sorry, but I'm the same camp as Rob and Azalin and jem and fearfaoin and plunkett on this one.
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
User avatar
fearfaoin
Posts: 7975
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:31 am
antispam: No
Location: Raleigh, NC
Contact:

Post by fearfaoin »

Rob Sharer wrote:At some stage, I intend to discuss it with the man himself. Anyone ever get his word on the subject?
Dale did an interview with John many years ago, wherein this was mentioned.
Nothing ground breaking though.

http://www.chiffandfipple.com/sindtinterview.html

Maybe it's time to reopen this issue with the man himself. Though, I'm on his
6 month waiting list right now, so it's possible that he doesn't have time for
R&D at the moment...

I've heard a Sindt head will fit on a Feadog body, enabling crossfingering...
I'll go try it in a minute with my new (to me) Sindt.
User avatar
Rob Sharer
Posts: 1682
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:32 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Either NC, Co. Clare, or Freiburg i.B., depending...

Post by Rob Sharer »

Just to clarify...

I've tried the "oxx ooo - and - blow - softly" approach, and it's entirely unworkable - sounds like geese farts on a muggy day. Only thing worse than a sharp C is a mulchy C. The three schemes which I employ when I play this whistle are:

1) Use oxx ooo and totally ignore the tuning issue.

2) Use oxx xox, which produces a fine Cnat, and try not to resent having to do it like that.

3) Put the damn thing down and go back to the Susato.

Cheers,
Rob

p.s. Grousing aside, there are lots of things to like about these whistles. especially the C# and E models.
jim stone
Posts: 17193
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:00 pm

Post by jim stone »

Question:
why doesn't he just place the holes so that there
is a straightforwardly in tune crossfingered
C natural? What does the present arrangement
buy him?
User avatar
Rob Sharer
Posts: 1682
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:32 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Either NC, Co. Clare, or Freiburg i.B., depending...

Post by Rob Sharer »

That, Jim, is the $64,000 question. Cheers,


Rob
User avatar
Azalin
Posts: 2783
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Montreal, Canada
Contact:

Post by Azalin »

jim stone wrote:Question:
why doesn't he just place the holes so that there
is a straightforwardly in tune crossfingered
C natural? What does the present arrangement
buy him?
Hehe I think no one knows, but I kinda like this. I mean, I love the fact that he's been told so many times and his answer seems to be something similar to "screw it, I'll do what I want". The quality of his whistles at such low price gives him the right to be excentric :-)
User avatar
burnsbyrne
Posts: 1345
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Post by burnsbyrne »

I solved the problem (mostly) by replacing the Sindt tube with a Feadog tube. You have to sand down the end of the Feadog tube so it will fit in the Sindt head.
Mike
jloug
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:19 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: USA

Post by jloug »

User avatar
fearfaoin
Posts: 7975
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:31 am
antispam: No
Location: Raleigh, NC
Contact:

Post by fearfaoin »

fearfaoin wrote:I've heard a Sindt head will fit on a Feadog body, enabling crossfingering...
I'll go try it in a minute with my new (to me) Sindt.
I did it and it's perfect, nice crossfingered Cnat, lovely Sindt sound.
It will take a bit of sanding to get the head to slide smoothly, though.
User avatar
Guinness
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:16 pm

Post by Guinness »

fearfaoin wrote:
fearfaoin wrote:I've heard a Sindt head will fit on a Feadog body, enabling crossfingering...
I'll go try it in a minute with my new (to me) Sindt.
I did it and it's perfect, nice crossfingered Cnat, lovely Sindt sound.
It will take a bit of sanding to get the head to slide smoothly, though.
Makes you wonder why he simply doesn't offer more than one tube.
User avatar
fearfaoin
Posts: 7975
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:31 am
antispam: No
Location: Raleigh, NC
Contact:

Post by fearfaoin »

Guinness wrote:Makes you wonder why he simply doesn't offer more than one tube.
I think the crux of the problem is that, with the current perceived problem, he
has a 6 month waiting list. If he took the time to get the perfect, cross-fingered
tube, he'd have a 3-year wating list, because he would have the perfect whistle.
User avatar
Ro3b
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Contact:

Post by Ro3b »

I've tried the "oxx ooo - and - blow - softly" approach, and it's entirely unworkable - sounds like geese farts on a muggy day. Only thing worse than a sharp C is a mulchy C.
Shrug. It works fine on the one I've got. I was playing it last night and thinking how unhappy I was with the two-finger C when I got it nine years ago, and how I automatically blow the note in tune now. It could well be a variable thing from whistle to whistle. FWIW I find the upper octave on most Copelands to be horribly out of tune.
Post Reply