A man on the moon and whistles out of tune

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:52 pm

Well look at the darn price on a Martin guitar! You're paying for something there. Even the cheapest Martin guitar is handled by individuals many times throughout the process of making it. There are expensive whistles. I have one that is mid-range in price and I think it is quite well in tune. I don't know what Feadog does, and if they are great, cheap whistles all I can say is buy those. When something is cheap you should be surprised if it is any good.

hoofbeats · Post by **hoofbeats** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:08 pm

If I remember right from physics class (and someone please correct me if I don't), the waves in an air column are a much more complex system than yer old standing wave (guitar string). I can't remember much more without pulling out a book...

But I definitely remember a simple formula that related frequency to the length between nodes and the diameter of the string.

Chief Wanganui · Post by **Chief Wanganui** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:50 am

Cynth wrote:Well look at the darn price on a Martin guitar! You're paying for something there. Even the cheapest Martin guitar is handled by individuals many times throughout the process of making it. There are expensive whistles. I have one that is mid-range in price and I think it is quite well in tune. I don't know what Feadog does, and if they are great, cheap whistles all I can say is buy those. When something is cheap you should be surprised if it is any good.

I completely agree with the latter statement, although miracles do happen!

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:59 am

stevetcm wrote:
I don't think this is physically possible. There is a ratio of good to bad
products in every factory, it's called yield, and it will never be 100%
That's only if it's old fashioned engineering. There's always this http://www.alexdenouden.nl/08/rapprod2.htm but it's going to put the price up a bit.

Sorry Steve, The lazer rapid prototyper in its current form is flawed for musical instruments. As wonderful as it is (i'm impressed) it still has the flaw of rational numbers - it will produce singularities and alias errors - in other words the labium ramp will be stepped to some degree and pixelation will occur in the tone holes - these things seem to make a big difference in whistles - I suspect that the lazer method will have to get into sub-micron resolutions before it will work for us.

Also, much as I love Martin guitars - they are just as flawed as any other evenly divided scale - and if the strings are streatched-in incorrectly or there's any rust or grease on them they will be as much as 30 cents out of tune at the octave - just the same as a cheapie. Even moreso on jumbo-fretted Martins - the more you press the sharper it gets!

I also had pause to look at the story of a certain John Harrison who develped the navigation clock - he also wrote a book arguing that integer intervals were incorrect in describing harmonics and the harmonic scale - in other words Pythagorus may have got it wrong!

So as always the key to correct tuning is shaped a bit like the letter G and stuck on the side of your head!

Of course, there's something shaped like the number one that can help a lot if it's well made - A decent whistle!!

MaryC · Post by **MaryC** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:55 am

Mitch wrote:So as always the key to correct tuning is shaped a bit like the letter G and stuck on the side of your head!

Which makes me wonder: are you folks really so sensitive that you can tell about the out-of-tune-ness of all the whistles you mention, just by listening? (Life must be hard if every time you hear something you're acutely aware of any imperfections in it's pitch.)

Or are you using tools to measure the pitch?

MaryC

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:05 am

Usually if I'm playing a whistle or a flute, I tend to "blow the notes into tune."

Most musicians do, in fact.

This is why, when tuning an instrument, it's always better if there is someone else who can look at the tuner.

--James

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:15 am

peeplj wrote:Pianos and other equally-tempered instruments are deliberately out of tune, equally out of tune in all keys, allowing them to play with a certain baseline level of acceptability in all keys.

Yeah, yeah. The point was the consistency "despite the player"...

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:33 am

MaryC wrote:
Mitch wrote:So as always the key to correct tuning is shaped a bit like the letter G and stuck on the side of your head!
Which makes me wonder: are you folks really so sensitive that you can tell about the out-of-tune-ness of all the whistles you mention, just by listening? (Life must be hard if every time you hear something you're acutely aware of any imperfections in it's pitch.)

Or are you using tools to measure the pitch?

MaryC

Mary, I don't think my ear is terribly sensitive. I was very worried about this and got sort of obsessed with whether my Cnatural was sounding just right. But I realized that if I play a scale, that is I hear a note in a familiar setting, or play a tune I know, like Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star that I do seem to notice if something sounds odd. I don't think my ear is all that sensitive though, and I just hope it is sensitive enough. I am not walking around going "Oh, that bird is slightly off key!"

I am not a musician or anything like that.

I am concerned about hearing properly in modes I am not accustomed to. But one thing is to listen to losts of Irish music, if that is your interest, then you can get your ear used to those modes that aren't often used. I hope that will help me.

I don't use a tuner because I think first I should try letting my ear learn to judge the pitch. Especially since tuning isn't just a once in a while thing. Every note I play I have to make a judgment on (at least that's what it sounds like) and I can't be sitting there looking at a tuner, that would just drive me insane. And mostly they seem to sound okay. Most of the notes right now seem like they just come out sounding okay---that probably means I have a tin ear. I don't have anyone to tell me how I sound right now.

I am a beginner so take what I said with a grain of salt.

falkbeer · Post by **falkbeer** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:23 pm

MaryC wrote:
Mitch wrote:So as always the key to correct tuning is shaped a bit like the letter G and stuck on the side of your head!
Which makes me wonder: are you folks really so sensitive that you can tell about the out-of-tune-ness of all the whistles you mention, just by listening? (Life must be hard if every time you hear something you're acutely aware of any imperfections in it's pitch.)

Or are you using tools to measure the pitch?

MaryC

The latitude of tolerance for out-of-tune instrement is very great. There is the whole range from people with perfect pitch to more or less tone deaf people. Generally people who play wind instruments are more sensitive than pianists or guitarists. Even if a flute is very well tuned one must always make small adjustments. Very much like singing or playing the violine.

When you are playing with someone else, for instance pianist, the problem becomes acute. The whistle must be in tune. If you are playing with a guitarist it´s easier to correct the problem. A guitarist could always pich up or down his instrument a little. If such a whistle is in tune with itself, then there is no problem.

I can frankly admit that I find nothing more frustating than to listen to an instrument that is not in tune. It completely ruins the whole musical experience. But that´s just me... On the other hand, I´m a bad speller and it doesn´t bother me at all! (I´m from Sweden)

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:44 pm

Well, I think that anyone who is listening to something that sounds out of tune would find it very unpleasant if not impossible. For some people perhaps the offness has to be greater for them to discern it (that's what I worry about), and others can hear smaller degrees of offness, but I don't think anyone who hears something playing out of tune can hope the experience lasts very long!

I hope you didn't think that I thought playing out of tune was okay, just because I was not surprised that many cheap whistles were not in very good tune. That comment just had to do with the whistles. If I couldn't play a whistle in tune, then I would have to get a different one.

I'm Swedish too, or at least my ancestors were, but I also am bothered by incorrect spelling!

RonKiley · Post by **RonKiley** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:23 pm

On the subject of Martin Guitars I do not agree at all that they are all perfect. When I bought mine I went through a whole bunch of them until I found one I liked. A friend of mine went to the factory and went through 100s. He only found one he really liked and they wouldn't sell it to him no matter how much he begged.

Ron

falkbeer · Post by **falkbeer** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:43 pm

Cynth wrote: I hope you didn't think that I thought playing out of tune was okay, just because I was not surprised that many cheap whistles were not in very good tune. That comment just had to do with the whistles. If I couldn't play a whistle in tune, then I would have to get a different one.

I'm Swedish too, or at least my ancestors were, but I also am bothered by incorrect spelling!

Nice to hear from a fellow swede!

Of course I didn´t think that you thought that playing out of tune was okay. I merely pointed at the fact that "out of tune" is very different for different people. I believe that one should always let the ear make the decision. If an instrument feels right to you it probably is - regarding what an electonic meter says. Good musicians have confidence in their abilities.

English is a hard language to learn how to spell. (and in fact, swedish isn´t much easier). One has to learn many words individually - like "enough" (enuff). If one picks up a lot by ear from TV and travelling it doesn´t help very much when it comes to spelling. On the other hand I speak a little spanish too, and it´s much easier to spell. If one hears a word one could almost always guess the correct spelling. (Finnish is often mentioned as the most logical language (regarding spelling) in the world)

hyldemoer · Post by **hyldemoer** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:41 pm

I'm with the earlier comment about musicians using their breath to bring a wind instrument into tune. You learn to over blow or under blow to play the note where you want.

I had a whistle teacher who wanted us to practice with an electronic tuner.
I'd rather practice with other musicians and know how to be in key with how they'd agreed the tune should be played,
but then I also play fiddle.
I'm used to trying to accomodate the room.

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:49 pm

MaryC wrote:
Mitch wrote:So as always the key to correct tuning is shaped a bit like the letter G and stuck on the side of your head!
Which makes me wonder: are you folks really so sensitive that you can tell about the out-of-tune-ness of all the whistles you mention, just by listening? (Life must be hard if every time you hear something you're acutely aware of any imperfections in it's pitch.)

Or are you using tools to measure the pitch?

MaryC

'Scuse me Mary C,

If you're looking for a musical instrument that is as lazy as typing on your computer keyboard, then you are not intersted in music.

I urge you to get involved. Music is a cycle, we don't listen to birds to see if they are out of key - we listen to them to hear what the message of their song is in our hearts.

Sorry to go strong on this, but the tuning thing always falls back to the musician, and how well the musician executes her/his expression, It MAY be helped or hindered by the instrument, but in the end If you don't match the "cycle" from your heart through your fingers through your ears through your heart to your fingers no one is going to hear what you've got to express - you may as well just program your poota to make random notes in even scale and stick some echo in tripple time on it - that worked OK for Kraftwerk. But then Kraftwerk also listened and tweaked their electronic filters according to their hearts command.

Even math tells us that electronic tuners are only a convention - they have no truth in them apart from confirming the convention - if the convention changes, then all the tuners will be fill-dirt.

There's really no escape, you either play music or you don't.

A person is well served by playing music if only for the discipline. But it is not for everyone. The choice to spend the years in refining musical execution may well be better spent playing the stock market. But for a player - the years of dedication will never be shortenned by blaming the musical instruments or investment software.

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:42 am

I feel pretty strongly that 'tuning' is more about people than gear. What is 'in-tune' to you? Lovely, resonant intervals, or spot-on equal temperment? What if the player is blowing the fundamental sharp and the 1st overtone flat? This is called 'flarp' and is pretty common on flute. Is a good string quartet in-tune, or is a piano in-tune?

One thing with teaching kids to play in tune: ask them to match pitch, and they'll likely make it worse. Ask them to play with their best tone quality, and they'll play better in tune.