Chiff and Fipple Forums

AZ, that remark about the Copley's flutes isn't funny, even though you probably mean it in jest. Dave's work is excellent, and his name doesn't deserve to be any where near this thread.

Your comments are ironic; I could have warned people a loooong time about McHaffie's scam - but then I would have had 80 percent of the message board climbing up my ass about attacking a whistle maker without giving him the benefit of the doubt, blah, blah, blah....

Even now there are people in this thread who continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. The majority of regular posters on this board don't want to hear about the unprofessional, (and occasionally unethical), things many of the whistle makers do. Very few people want to hear me, Jessie, or any one else, say unflattering things about the whistle makers - regadless of how truthful the comments.

So, when someone like McHaffie rolls in, and is obviously a fraud, who can blame Jessie for not saying something like "Wow, this is the worst freak'in whistle I've ever played!" or me from not telling you he's a scam artist?

I say shame on all the folks out there who got crappy whistles and or lost their money, but didn't speak up to warn their C&F brothers and sisters. I also say (as I have before) shame on us all for allowing this message board to be a hostile environment for those who would speak the truth. Right now it's easier for people to keep their mouths shut, rather than get jumped on for saying anything less than positive about a whistle maker or his products.

Okay, that's my sermon for the night. Now please pass that full collection plate back up to the front, so I can commence to restoring sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf. Step right on up now, don't be afraid....

Just an added note...I had also been considering ordering a few whistles from John McHaffie but while I was there visiting he gave me one he had just finished. Seeing the craftsmanship of it I decided not to order any at all. I had heard from others on this board that he did wonderful work, etc. and was hoping that mine was just an oddity...I guess it wasn't.

On 2002-01-03 21:23, Loren wrote:
Well, I've been holding my tongue too, but I have to agree with John - I think most of you will likely never see your instruments. It's sad to say, and a disgusting thought, but I believe you've been had.

Well, I dunno. I mean, I know I'm not gonna see my hundred bucks again, but I *did* have whistles in my hands at one point, and there was evidently effort put into them, just heavily misguided effort (pretty, innovative, but poor-playing). I'm more inclined to think that it's a case of business ineptitude than nefariousness. I suspect things went pear-shaped, organizationally and financially, and he high-tailed it.

I don't disagree with the "never see the instruments" part, though.

<ul>-Rich</ul>

My wife often asks me, when I buy or sell whistles to people on this board sight unseen, why I am so trusting. I always tell her that there's no reason not to. I hope that if there are any unscrupulous people out there that they will be found out and reported quickly.

Loren, as to <i>McHaffie's scam</i> I still am hoping that that is not the case even though I am out nothing by him. Why do you feel he <i>is obviously a fraud</i>? When buying handcrafted whistles you expect a certain amount of variation in the product. How much variation makes a <i>crappy whistle</i>. Obviously there are a number of people who love his work or are they scamming us to?:-D

I'll admit that I bought one of the Parkhurst whistles simply because others were saying they loved it, it played wonderfully, etc. When I got mine I was highly disappointed in it. I didn't like the way it looked. I didn't like the way it played. I sold it to someone else on the board who loved the way it looked and played...go figure. What if I had reported Dave as being a maker of crappy whistles? (which is obviously <b>not</b> the case!)

I think that John McHaffie simply abandoned a poorly run business.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Allison on 2002-01-03 23:49 ]</font>

Azlin said it, "that no one spoke loudly against John's whistles...It led to so many orders." I would have piped up long ago about never hearing any of his whistles sounding in tune, while he played them on Clips n Snips, but I thought that it would have been rude to comment, so I kept my opinions quiet. And that's the dilema about this kind of thing. Some of us have said that we should not give negative opinions on a whistle (or maybe it was just about bashing them), and that it would be cutting into the business of a whistlesmith. But that is exactly what this board is about. We can't try out whistles that are made hundreds of miles away, so we have to rely on the opinions, good or bad, of people who have tried them. There did seem to be be an over-abundance of positives. Maybe they were made by people who were too inexperienced to tell whether or not a whistle is in tune.

But that is exactly what this board is about. We can't try out whistles that are made hundreds of miles away, so we have to rely on the opinions, good or bad, of people who have tried them. There did seem to be be an over-abundance of positives.

I understand the hesitancy to openly report an unscrupulous whistlemaker here. However, a simple note stating something like "Caveat emptor about so-and-so's whistles - email me for details before ordering" might help some of us." I don't normally spend a lot of time on this board, just to glance at the topics every other day or so, but it does help me with info I might need. As with all of us, my whistle dollars are hard to come by. I'm not a poor man, but my income has to go to the needs of my family. So, maybe I should have been extremely vigilant in investigating before ordering, but I have had excellent experiences with very professional and gracious people like Mike Burke and John Sindt and Mack Hoover. You can never go wrong with any of them. So, maybe I ignorantly expected the same treatment in this case. But, there were no warning opinions prior to my ordering. And, I have seen warnings posts before on other makers, so I thought I would be safe. Unfortunately, I won't be able to justify a whistle purchase for several months now, and certainly not from any relatively new maker if this situation is never resolved. I know one thing for certain, if anyone honestly posts their bad experience on this board as a warning to others, I will not criticize (if the whistlemaker has been given ample opportunity to correct the situation) but rather I would appreciate the information. So, perhaps this whole experience could be the only known real cure for WhOA...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ScottStewart on 2002-01-04 05:18 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ScottStewart on 2002-01-04 05:20 ]</font>

ScottStewart wrote:
....I have had excellent experiences with very professional and gracious people like Mike Burke and John Sindt and Mack Hoover. You can never go wrong with any of them....

'Never' is a very strong word.

'Never' is a very strong word.

Actually, 'never' is a <i>wrong</i> word in this case, based on my experience...


Jens

I hope that the bad experience people had with one seller does not hurt the trust that people on this board have with each other.

I have sold a lot of whistles and CDs without out any problems. People trusted me enough to send checks to me then I would show trust back by sending the whistle or CDs to them (usually the same day the check arrived) without waiting for the check to clear. I never got burned.

One time I sent some CDs out before I got the check (I was going to the post office with other orders so I decided to send that order out since the buyer said the check was in the mail). I didn't get the check, I emailed the person once with no reply, so I forgot about it (one bad experience after about 30-40 transactions was not too bad).
After 4-5 months, a few days ago the check arrived (with an explanation for the delay).

This is a great community, full of trust and I hope this continues.

Joe

I couldn't resist making a comment.

Mr McHaffie has obviously let some people down. I for one contacted him last year to ask that he did more to try and revive his low level of customer satisfaction. It seems that he was not able to respond to that request, fully.

I do want to say though, that it's easy to single out people for blame and admonishment, and assume that everything else in the garden is rosey. The psychological term is 'scapegoating'.

For example, there is at least one person on this board who owes me money. I have no intention of naming them and I consider their debt 'written off'. But, just the same, it's interesting to see 'mental block' in action.

No doubt, there are people who feel that my packages take too long in the post, too

Take care,

Steve Power

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: StevePower on 2002-01-04 07:19 ]</font>

Yes, never is the wrong word. Having purchased some 70 + whistles over the last 2+ years, I can tell you that I've had really bad experiences with several of the "Top" makers. The truth is I have communications with people off-board, numerous times a year, where they tell me about thier problems with maker x, y, or z. I can tell you that a number of these makers behave in totally unprofessional ways at times - ways that would get larger businesses in hot water with various consumer and regulatory agencies.

I (and a couple of others) used to mention these things on the message board, but the majority of people here don't want to hear it. I got to tired of having to explain myself 6 ways to Sunday to people, people who kept questioning ME and my motives for trying to help them. It always gets turned around on this board - instead of "Hey thanks Loren, Jessie, whoever, for being the consumer reports of C&F", we get "Hey give that maker a break! Get off his back!! Just because you've had a bad experience doesn't mean...." and so on. Fine, just don't complain when you're still waiting 2 years later for a whistle you were told you'd have in a week. Don't whine about getting paying a fortune for a designer whistle that doesn't even play in tune. And don't act shocked when McHaffie runs off with your money - If all people want when they tune into C&F is the happy smiley channel, then that's what they get (my deranged and misguided ramblings aside)

I don't have the time or desire to spend every waking hour of my personal lfe returning e-mail - so I'm not going to say, "Contact me off-list", as someone suggested, because invariably this means I'll get between 6 and 30 e-mails asking for an in-depth explantion about the whistle maker in question. 80 % of those e-mails will then require at least one additional response, several will go on longer.

If I can't speak openly in this forum without taking heat from the players, the makers, or Dale.....If MY honesty, integrity and judgement are constantly being called into question when I'm simply trying to help.....Well, why bother? I don't even get the satisfaction of a simple "thanks for warning us" 90% of the time. Who needs the aggravation?


This message board is what we've made it: a very cozy place where where people can, for the most part, escape the ugliness of the world outside, and I think this is, by and large, a good thing. There is however a price to be paid for the "All feel good, all the time" vibe.

As we learned here in the U.S. late last year: It can't be fun and games all the time. If you choose not to discuss, and not to deal with, the ugliness in the world, you can have a grand old time for a while, but eventually the ugliness will pay you a visit, because you didn't do anything to lock it out.

Loren

70+ whistles over the last 2+ years ??
Loren, that's a whistle every 2 weeks... Perhaps I should introduce you to Betty Ford, I hear they've opened a new wing to the clinic.
Actually, it's given you experience few of us will ever encounter. Thanks for telling it like it is.

Well, my turn...I already paid for a whistle I still don't have.

I ordered a high D from Mr. McHaffie in June 2001. He promised in August it would ship within 90 days. I even received an email as recent as November 7 that my order would ship "within the next week or so" (said he was having problems with his materials supplier).

It's January 4, 2002 and still no whistle (or explanation). Six months and counting... From what I've read, I may be out my money (fortunately only $35).

I want to try to contact McHaffie, but my patience is gone, and I'm afraid the former collector in me wants to start rattling cages.

-Tom

This is an important topic. I'm glad we're talking about it.

John Palmer wrote:

There did seem to be be an over-abundance of positives. Maybe they were made by people who were too inexperienced to tell whether or not a whistle is in tune.

Yeah, it's gotta be the case.

Scott Stewart wrote:

A simple note stating something like "Caveat emptor about so-and-so's whistles - email me for details before ordering" might help some of us.

Yeah, well, I have done this many times. I have gotten attacked publicly by some, saying that it is rude to imply bad things without giving reasons. There isn't any one course of action that will please everyone.

Hmm.

Jessie

Here is a slightly different ethical dilema:
I purchased a High D McHaffie whistle, received it after MUCH MUCH delay along with a free "bonus" Low D "for my troubles." I complained to John about both of the whistles , though the copper high D plays OK (not great, but not bad either), it has cosmetic flaws, and John, after MUCH MUCH delay, sent another high and low D. I was to compare these two sets of whistles and send back one set. The whistles were all different and not particularly good, though playable with just the right adjustment and a lot of practice. I couldn't figure out which low D I liked best and put them aside to try again later. This was a mistake because I have never gotten around to trying them again (I have since received an Overton Low D that I like very much and play a lot), and I still have the McHaffie whistles. Ethically I should just send them back to John, but the thought occurred to me that I could send them to someone else who paid money for a whistle and never received one, bypassing John, due to the current unavailability of John.

Any ideas about what you would do in a situation like this?

Neil Brock
nbrock@imt.net