Guess What's in The Alamo...

[Colin]

Regarding the 'Scotch-Irish', or 'Ulster-Scots' - or whatever you want to
call them - and their widespread settling of the Southern States, I'm
posting here an interesting article I pulled off a 5-string banjo newsgroup
I frequent.
I cannot vouch for the accuracy, however it is nonetheless interesting.

HILLBILLY

The origin of this American nickname for mountain folk in the Ozarks and
in Appalachia comes from Ulster. Ulster-Scottish (The often incorrectly
labeled "Scots-Irish") settlers in the hill-country of Appalachia brought
their traditional music with them to the new world, and many of their
songs and ballads dealt with William, Prince of Orange, who defeated the
Catholic King James II of the Stuart family at the Battle of the Boyne,
Ireland in 1690.

Supporters of King William were known as "Orangemen" and "Billy Boys"
and their North American counterparts were soon referred to as "hill-
billies".
It is interesting to note that a traditional song of the Glasgow Rangers
football club today begins with the line, "Hurrah! Hurrah! We are the Billy
Boys!" and shares its tune with the famous American Civil War song,
"Marching Through Georgia".
Stories abound of American National Guard units from Southern states
being met upon disembarking in Britain during the First and Second World
Wars with the tune, much to their displeasure! One of these stories comes
from Colonel Ward Schrantz, a noted historian, Carthage Missouri native,
and veteran of the Mexican Border Campaign, as well as the First and
Second World Wars, documented a story where the US Army's 30th
Division, made up of National Guard units from Georgia, North and South
Carolina and Tennessee arrived in the United Kingdom."a waiting British
band broke into welcoming American music, and the soldiery, even the
118th Field Artillery and the 105 Medical Battalion from Georgia, broke
into laughter.
The excellence of intent and the ignorance of the origins of the American
music being equally obvious. The welcoming tune was "Marching Through
Georgia."

-----------------

[The Weekenders]

Yeah. David Hackett Fischer, in "Albion's Seed," also shows the Border origins of the words "cracker," "redneck" and "hoosier." Many think they are American originals but not so.

[Steven]

David, don't tell me you played on a Serpent!


Steven

[daweiss]

David, don't tell me you played on a Serpent!


Steven

Dear Steven and all:

I want to answer Steven's question, quoted above, but first I'd like to apologize to you guys for jumping in like 16 tons right off the bat. Long winded is one thing, but maybe I went too far. I only meant to be informative, and maybe drum up some more business for the flick while I'm at it - I could talk this music, history, and music history stuff for days. So if I ticked anyone off or disrespected anyone's opinion, my apologies. Fire away as you please. if you think the movie sucks, go right ahead. If you think the music is not your cup of tea, or if you didn't like what I recorded, that's fine. We all come from different places. Etc. etc.

As to Steven's question, nope it's not a serpent. I've never even seen one of those things. I think the serpent is the precursor to the tuba, more of a brass thing than woodwind.

The instrument I'm playing for the real low whistle parts is like a whistle in that it has a fipple, but it's an octave lower than a Low C whistle, and is made of wood.
Y'all might guess the instrument, but it is the Brand that is so unusual, as well as the type of wood it's made of.

Good luck
dave weiss
davidweissflute.net

[Steven]

Hi Dave. Well I personally think all the info you've given is great, so I can't think of anything you need to apologize for. If I sounded like I did, well, that was just intended to be good-natured ribbing. You'll see lots of that around here. No offense taken, none intended.

Now, you gotta quit this whole suspense thing! So, we can probably all guess it was a bass re****er you played, but what's the interesting stuff you mention? Spill the beans!!


Steven

[The Weekenders]

Congrats Dave for getting a great gig! Glad somebody besides Galway gets the movie work!

The more whistles the better, in movies, soundtrax, whatever. Screw the critics. I have found very few references to whistles though in 19th century primary source material. I use them a bit in Gold Rush music out here in Calaforny.

Later in the century, in about 1846, Stevenson's Regiment came here to fight in the Mexican-American War. They were recruited from NY city Irishmen and if they had whistles, I would guess they brought them. If anyone has the spare time, letters from that Regiment would probably mention music..I have found references to fifes in Spanish Colonial territory (18th century) and found a reference to a pipe and tabor in a Bureau of American Ethnomusicology tract about the Yuman Indians! The author refererred to a drum and two-holed pipe being played by same person as though it was an aboriginal creation.

The only reference I have found thus far is when Mark Twain said that "a barber in the mines was as useful as a tinwhistle at Niagara" (because the men were all heavily bearded etc as part of the "uniform"). I am always on the lookout for musical references and will duly report if I find any more corroboration.

[Kelhorn Mike]

Hey Dave,
I'll venture a guess as to the instrument you played. A fipple flute an octave below
a Low -C- whistle and a unique brand. Could it have been a Paetzold
Great Bass Recorder in -C-? It's what comes to mind. A good instrument
whether it was what you used or not! I'm a big history buff so I'll go and see the
movie with an open mind. Congrats!

Best

Kelhorn Mike

[Bloomfield]

Mike, I think you've gotten that one right. David lists the great bass recorder on his webpage.

[daweiss]

Hey Dave,
I'll venture a guess as to the instrument you played. A fipple flute an octave below
a Low -C- whistle and a unique brand. Could it have been a Paetzold
Great Bass Recorder in -C-? It's what comes to mind. A good instrument
whether it was what you used or not! I'm a big history buff so I'll go and see the
movie with an open mind. Congrats!

Best

Kelhorn Mike

Dear Mike, Steve, et al -


DING DING DING DING. We have a winner! Show them what they've won Bill ...

A Paetzold Low C Great Bass recorder is the right answer. Here's a link with pictures:

http://www.earlymusic.gil.com.au/paetzold.htm

These behemoths are really quite interesting. Initially made by this fine recorder company to make the various bass recorders at about 20-40% of the going rate, they ended up developing a unique sounding instrument. It's made of plywood, YES PLYWOOD, including the keys, has a square bore, and a range of an octave and a minor 7th. I've used them many times to get a really low whistle sound - I can't make the stretch on whistles lower than a Low B - as well as low woodwind sounds in general.


On the history side, I agree with "the weekenders" about the seeming lack of whistles in "american" music sources, but it does stand to reason that they would have traveled with the Celtic settlers as they moved west. Interestingly, Harry Smith's "Anthology of American Folk Music" lists several tracks with whistles, but these tracks are almost completely peformed by African americans with far more "African" influences than anything Celtic. Furthermore, the "whistles" Smith lists were actually panpipes for the most part and falsely identified. But I do recall at least one track with what sounded to me like a whistle. But that could have just as easily come from Africa and not from Celtic influence.

Maybe newly arrived whistlers adopted fifes to be more American?

Just a theory.
dave w.

[mvhplank]

I can't get david's link to come up, so I did this Google image search:

http://images.google.com/images?q=paetz ... a=N&tab=wi

Way cool!

M

[daweiss]

I can't get david's link to come up, so I did this Google image search:

http://images.google.com/images?q=paetz ... a=N&tab=wi

Way cool!

M

Yes they are interesting looking things aren't they. The square design is
modeled after some low church organ pipes in Europe that are square.
I purchased mine through the von Huene workshop outside of Boston Mass.
They were very helpful.

On the history side, several of you noted the strong Celtic influence in the
American South. Probably the most striking, yet little known symbols of
this legacy is the Confederate States battle flag, the very familiar cross or
"X" with stars, over a red background. This flag is generally known these
days as the "Stars and Bars" which is incorrect. It's true name is "the
southern cross". The Stars and Bars was a different flag that looked very
much like the United State’s familiar "Old Glory".


The origin of the cross on the flag is from the American Scots, who
appropriated it from their heritage. The cross is a representation of St.
Andrew's cross, St. Andrew being the patron saint of Scotland, and this "x"
cross being his symbol. St. Andrew was crucified on an X shaped cross.
From what I can gather on the subject, it seems that one of St. Andrew's
venerated qualities is the strength of his character, and as such military
types looked to him in times of need.

The flag also seems an appropriation of the Scottish national flag of the
period, which featured St. Andrew's Cross in white on a blue background.

google search <origins of confederate battle flag>
or
<confederate saint andrews cross>

and you get more to read on the subject than you may care for.

The flag was brought into action early in the Civil War, and though it was
never the official flag of the south, it is probably the most well known of
Confederate Symbols.
Celtic in origin.

for whatever its worth,

[AaronMalcomb]

Thanks for posting Dave, nice to meet you.
Thanks for the information too, like I said, I'm no expert at whistle history and certainly no expert on American history. Fiddles I picture in the south, whistle, and the bagpipes in the movie too, I can't picture, but I s'pose I will now.

The bagpipes are historically correct. There was a bagpiper there during the battle.

McGregor, John. (18?? - 1836) Scottish, resided in Nacogdoches, Texas. Piper. In 1835, joined the volunteer rebel army when the Texas Revolution began as an artilleryman. Went on to serve in the garrison of the Alamo as a 2nd Sergeant of artillery and probably commanded a battery of guns on the Alamo walls, where he was killed during the Mexican assault of March 6, 1836. His age is variously given as 27, 28, or 34 years. Best remembered as "The Alamo Bagpiper" and several survivors later recalled how during lulls in the battle McGregor would play along with Davy Crockett's fiddle music to keep up the spirits of the defenders.

Cheers,
Aaron

[Guest]

Dear whistle list:

My name is Dave Weiss.
There is a strong Celtic presence in The Alamo score because many, if not most of the
men who perished at The Alamo were of Scots/Irish ancestry - as was the case throughout much of the American South, from which many of those men came. The year is 1836, and many of these Celtic settlers would be bringing their cultural heritage with them to the US west.


thanks,
david weiss
davidweissflute.net

ok but here's some of what really happened.

After the Spanish migration into what is now the southern fringe states and Mexico, then called New Spain, the next European settlements were German and Irish Catholics. Those folks were brought by Mexico from Ireland out from under the jackboot of the Protestant British ( Ulster Scots ) occupation of their country. In fact, the reason why Catholic Mexico brought them over was to provide a home where Catholicism was legal and not a crime as it had been in Ireland.

So the idea that - and if you would care to look in San Fernando Catholic Cathederal, you might have a clue as to the truth! - the Alamo was a bunch of Scottish-Irish Protestants fighting the Mexicans is a little ridiculus, since it was a fight between the entire population of the region against a cruel and greedy dictatorship. Add to that the fact that even though the Masons spent themselves trying to do otherwise, what resulted was as independent Republic of Texas not another teirritory of the USA. That happened later. Today the people of this region are still predominantly Hispanic - Native American not Hillbillies.

So who was at the Alamo?. Well many if not all of them were NOT Scot-Irish, there were many religions and nationalites there who all gave their lives to defend a Catholic Church, 'The San Antonio Mission'., otherwise know as 'The Alamo'.

Later history shows just how the Irish felt about the Anglo protestants when General Jackson attacked Mexico. At that battle one courageous Mexican brigade, all of them Irish Catholic, fought the Yankee to a standstill. As they say 'Biba Mehico' ...yeah sure.

So it seems as if after getting the shaft after the Guadeloupe many of them fled south looking to get another whack at the despised Protestant Scots-Irish.

[daweiss]

Dear whistle list:

My name is Dave Weiss.
There is a strong Celtic presence in The Alamo score because many, if not most of the
men who perished at The Alamo were of Scots/Irish ancestry - as was the case throughout much of the American South, from which many of those men came. The year is 1836, and many of these Celtic settlers would be bringing their cultural heritage with them to the US west.


thanks,
david weiss
davidweissflute.net

ok but here's some of what really happened.

After the Spanish migration into what is now the southern fringe states and Mexico, then called New Spain, the next European settlements were German and Irish Catholics. Those folks were brought by Mexico from Ireland out from under the jackboot of the Protestant British ( Ulster Scots ) occupation of their country. In fact, the reason why Catholic Mexico brought them over was to provide a home where Catholicism was legal and not a crime as it had been in Ireland.

So the idea that - and if you would care to look in San Fernando Catholic Cathederal, you might have a clue as to the truth! - the Alamo was a bunch of Scottish-Irish Protestants fighting the Mexicans is a little ridiculus, since it was a fight between the entire population of the region against a cruel and greedy dictatorship. Add to that the fact that even though the Masons spent themselves trying to do otherwise, what resulted was as independent Republic of Texas not another teirritory of the USA. That happened later. Today the people of this region are still predominantly Hispanic - Native American not Hillbillies.

So who was at the Alamo?. Well many if not all of them were NOT Scot-Irish, there were many religions and nationalites there who all gave their lives to defend a Catholic Church, 'The San Antonio Mission'., otherwise know as 'The Alamo'.

Later history shows just how the Irish felt about the Anglo protestants when General Jackson attacked Mexico. At that battle one courageous Mexican brigade, all of them Irish Catholic, fought the Yankee to a standstill. As they say 'Biba Mehico' ...yeah sure.

So it seems as if after getting the shaft after the Guadeloupe many of them fled south looking to get another whack at the despised Protestant Scots-Irish.

I’m not saying that the defenders of Alamo were ONLY Scotch/Irish, but rather that they made up a significant part of the people of that region. I base this on my readings of published, respected historians on the subject. Yes, there were people of other extractions at the Alamo, especially Mexicans in Texas who joined with the Texas rebels, known as Tejanos.

I don’t claim to be an expert on the subject so as to provide the last word. But prior to my involvement with “The Alamo” I read the following published works:

“Texian Iliad. A Military History of the Texas Revolution.” by Stephen Hardin. Mr. Hardin was the senior historical adviser on the movie.

“A Line in the Sand. The Alamo in Blood and Money.” By Randy Roberts and James Olsen. This is a very comprehensive and informative history of the causes of the Texas revolution, and the making of the “myth” of the Alamo.

“David Crockett: The Man and the Legend” by James Shackford.

All these works pointed out the Scotch/Irish heritage of a large part of the American South, Texas, and the defenders of The Alamo.

The whole point of this thread was that several posters had felt that whistles in the “The Alamo” score seemed a little historically incongruous. My readings of history, both the specific works above and general knowledge I have picked up on the way, told me otherwise.

The filmmakers decided to use whistles for the above reasons, and because aesthetically, it did the job for them

As to the other particulars you brought up, I have no knowledge of that stuff and can’t comment.

dave

[Guest]

"I’m not saying that the defenders of Alamo were ONLY Scotch/Irish, but rather that they made up a significant part of the people of that region. "



Is that a fact? Well if there were they all got killed in the Alamo. However at the Memorial downtown if I remember it right there are none.

A traditional list - Oh by Texas colonialists..


http://thealamo.org/defenders.html


The rest that came from New UlsterScotia in their millions are a figment of your movie mind. It did not happen.

Most Blancos down here are of Irish/German (Catholic) roots the rest drifted in over the decades because I guess they like the place.

Most folks down here I talked to about the movie said is was a waste of money, I agree. The movie is rubbish!

Books - oh yeah well if you did read those, you must have been asleep because you seem to think one kind of people are called one thing and another something else. Besides you need to read Hispanic authors about Hispanic history not some Anglo propaganda trying to justify the theft of the little bit of Tejas desert from the Natives.