Copeland Low D at 409$? WOA! How much profit?

[rich]

On 2001-12-15 13:44, Azalin wrote:
To be honnest, I also think that's a ripoff because whatever good the instrument is, it's just *not* worth it when you know how inexpensive it must be to produce.

While I think prices are high, I'm not sure they're artificially high. To address the "inexpensive to produce" bit in particular, consider pharmaceuticals. It costs a penny to produce every pill, but they sell them for $5, right? But it <i>doesn't</i> cost a penny for every pill. It costs a penny for every one except the first one, and the first one cost millions of dollars.

Same sort of thing goes on in craft instrumentmaking. It might be $100 of materials and $100 of labour going into that whistle -- but you're also paying for twenty years of learning how to make whistles, and ten years of development of that design, and being able to tell people you play a Copeland, and knowing you'll like the whistle you're mailed a year later, and so on.

Not that it's justified, necessarily, but there are a lot more elements involved in price settng than cost of materials and wage labour.

(Copeland's essentially in a position where he's a price-setter and his customers are
price-takers anyhow, so it's not surprising that he'd take advantage of it. If we
were price-setters, we'd take advantage of it too.)

<ul>-Rich</ul>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rich on 2001-12-15 23:52 ]</font>

[rich]

On 2001-12-15 20:46, dakotamouse wrote:
If they were quick and easy to make they'd be cranking them out by the hundreds a week.

Apologies for boring everyone with economics, but I couldn't let that one go by. If they were quick and easy to produce, he'd be cranking out the number at which the product of the market price and capacity is highest, which isn't necessarily his maximum capacity.

<ul>-Rich</ul>

[jim stone]

I second DM's apt description of
Copeland whistles as jewelry. Michael
Copeland was a jeweler, in fact, as
was I once. The fipple plug is set in
the whistle head like a stone in a
bezel--the whistles actually are
jewelry. Also MC apprenticed making
organ pipes. I believe
that's where the raised window
comes from. (A whistle is a sort
of organ pipe that can change tones.)
So each Copeland whistle
is a combination of an organ pipe
with a piece of jewelry.

There are some great whistles out there,
obviously, and also some very different
strategies for designing them--and
my personal opinion is that Copeland
whistles are the best in the world.
People who know these whistles and
who disagree with me will probably
still understand why I say this.

It is also true that a Copeland whistle
is worth considerably more on the day you receive it than you payed for it, and that it
appreciates in value.

[Cayden]

Loen wrote:
[/quote]


Sure, a top quality keyless woodenflute with a tuning slide can be made in less than a day...Ha Ha Ha! I'm sure Chris Wilkes, Hammy, and Patrick Olwell would appreciate your humour. Especially Chris with his 6 year waiting list. Yeah, yeah, we know: He and the others are a bunch of slackers; if they'd just work a few more hours everyday, they too would be able to complete an entire flute in less than a day, rather than taking the better part of a week.

[/quote]

What I said was entirely based on work I have seen done by a friend of mine who happens to be the worlds top uilleann pipemaker, flute in a day, not a bother. He is a very skilled maker(with a now 13 year waiting list for the pipes) t and I have seen him do this more than once. The B flat flute played by Ronan Browne took about that much time. I have other pipemakers seen in their workshop, having the apprentice turn out a batch of plain flutes to butter the bread. Which doesn't go to say that a maker doesn't want to hang on to the flute and play it over a couple of days and work on the intonation, but as said: a straightforward flute job CAN be done in a day.
When talking keyed flute it becomes a horse of a totally different colour.

And yes I like to provoke a bit, but in general I try very much not tot throw complete bull at you.

PS please note I didn't say anything about the quality of the whistles in question, I did say he didn't underquote the price of his labour. But there other things at work too, a bit beyond the scope of a forum like this maybe, I know that well.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-16 05:27 ]</font>

[brewerpaul]

Labor is definitely where the cost of a handmade whistle goes up. I am making wooden whistles, and the cost of even the most exotic woods is very minor compared to the cost of the MANY hours of hand work required to produce such a whistle, even if I "pay" myself at minimum wages. I do this because I love doing it, and a coupla extra dollars never hurts. For a pro, making instruments for a living, making a profit is important.
I had a Copeland D which I eventually sold to raise money for other instruments. This was simply a matter of personal choice-- I had other whistles whose sound I preferred. The quality of the workmanship was impeccable, and well worth every dollar I spent on the instrument.

[jim stone]

Hi Peter,

You write: 'And yes I like to provoke a bit,
but in general I try not to throw
complete bull at you.'

That makes sense, as there seems always
to be something of substance to your
postings. Also they are sometimes
provocative.

A problem I have with the latter
is that the whistle makers are often
reading these threads, which discuss
their product, and words like 'ripoff'
don't make their day any brighter--
whatever the reality of whistle pricing
amounts to. Obviously people
are likely to have a strong emotional response to their work being so denounced, especially in a public forum.

So if this is the hard, cold truth
that must be spoken in these terms
to do it justice ('ridiculous ripoff
prices'), then I say, follow
your lights and speak it. On the other
hand if you are speaking this way
because you like to provoke a bit,
well maybe that isn't a good enough
reason--given some of the likely
human consequences. Your substantial
point about speed and cost of whistle
production can be made less provocatively,
and it strikes me as an interesting one.

In all honesty, I don't see this
board as a good venue to be provocative.

Best wishes, Jim

[TelegramSam]

you people are *all* nuts.

[Whistlepeg]

It seems to me that something is worth
what somebody is willing to pay for it.
You only have to look at the thousands of $$$
spent on collectibles such as old toys, baseball card etc which have no intrinsic value to understand that people will pay any amount for what they want. Value is a personal thing and discussing it here on the board is like discussing politics or religion.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Whistlepeg on 2001-12-16 18:54 ]</font>

[TelegramSam]

Like I said.

NUTS!!!!!

[Azalin]

To Jim,

You are right, whistle makers might end up reading posts about "rip-off" and other "bad" and politically "incorrect" words about their work. But there's one thing that always bugged me in this forum (which I love) is that people just WON'T talk against a maker just to be correct and not destroy their work. Well, how many times have I made bad whistle purchase decisions because people wouldnt just stand their ground and speak up? Many. I'm getting sick of "you just ruined a maker's career" and blablabla. I think that by making whistles they have to understand that critics might always show up, and we should not try to tell "critics" that their postings is bad for the forum and the whistle community. It drives me mad every time.

At one point, a few posts ago, JessieK actually said something that seemed so amazing to me. She said that the Silkstone Low D wasnt at all special and she wouldnt suggest it. I was really impressed by that. I'm a big Silkstone fan, but just to see someone actually say something directly against a whistle was like a revelation to me, and I was quite happy with what she said. (I have never tried the Silkstone Low D, so can't say).

So this is my point here, if someone says that a whistle is piece of crap of rip-off, that's fine with me, if I don't agree, I will just write a message about the fact that I disagree, and why, I ***won't*** tell the person that his/her posts is bad for the makers, whistle community, etc etc... Argh I hate that!

Can you imagine if, let's say, Madonna, was getting mad at critics after every new album? Hmmm, I think she's learned that critics is part of life when you deliver a product, and this is part of what makes a "free" country and "free speech". You will think that I take it to the extreme here, and that's true, but I think it's the same underlying problem in our situation...

[jim stone]

Dear Azalin,

I agree with your message. I think
it's good to be critical of whistles
and I've noticed in the past that
people who express what strike me
as reasonable critical judgements get
jumped on. That's happened to me
a fair amount, in fact--because
I've expressed my share of criticisms
and made suggestions about how whistles
can be improved. I criticized
the Silkstone low D in the thread
you mentioned, I think; also Sindt
Bbs and As, to name a couple. I think
we gotta do that if people aren't gonna
buy whistles they end up hating, and
I think folks get a bit too defensive
about the whistles they like.

Dale once put it this way--there's
a difference between saying I don't
like ACME whistles because they are
internally out of tune, etc. and saying
that ACME whistles suck. I don't think
inflamatory language is helpful in
expressing criticisms; also I don't
like language that implies the maker
is dishonest (as does 'ripoff'). On the
other hand, I certainly can't rule out
the possibility that sometime this
is simply the plain truth--there are
ripoffs in this world. That may
be the hard, cold truth which can be
done justice only by using such words. But then I hope people won't talk that way
because they wish to be provocative.
I also hope that people will play a whistle
themselves before they start blasting
it or its price in such terms.

I had no problem with your
post, and the claim that the price of
Copeland whistles is way out of line
with the cost of producing them, and
cannot be justified, strikes me as
worth discussing. I hope
there will be more of this, in fact.

Best, Jim

[Azalin]

I agree, and by the way my post was directed to do, but wasnt aimed at you in particular. I understand your point and as you're saying, there's a constructive way and a non-constructive way of saying the same thing. I guess "rip-off" might be a bit over-exagerated, as it implies almost "stealing". I guess "overpriced" is a more meaningfull word. But I'm still as unsure about the the over-priced or not.... people say that labor is expensive, etc, but then what about whistle makers who were selling their whistles only 50$US a few years ago? Maybe it means that whistle makers used not to be able to live from their work, but at the price Copeland is selling, he is able to live from his work. That would be a good point.

[Loren]

Wow, there's so much good material in this thread for me to go off on.....I'm actually overwhelmed and can't figure out where to start!

Guess I'll just touch on a couple of things before I get overstimulated...

Az,

What, you've missed all MY "Tell it like it is" whistle reviews? How come Jessie get's all the glory, I'm hurt man!

Sam,

You're right we ARE all nuts.

Peter,

Are we really talking about the same sort of flutes here? 1 day to build from scratch a 5 or 6 piece top quality wooden flute? (Foot, RH, LH, and barrell sections plus headjoint and end cap for a R&R style flute) I really don't think so. Perhaps you have in mind a 2 or 3 piece roughly made instrument? Let's consider what's involved in making the type of flute I'm referring to, a 6 piece R&R style as mentioned above:

First off you have to measure and cut the wood into multiple pieces.

Next bore, then ream, each piece individually.

Now you have to mount 1 or more of these on the lathe; Let's say for sake of argument that the maker has a lathe with enough distance between centers that he/she can mount all the wood (except the end cap), using spacers. This would save some time, if you could do it that way, but I seriously doubt many (if any) do. Chances are you'll have to do at least two separate turnings, with time for unmounting and mounting in between.

So on goes the lathe and you start roughing down the pieces. Next comes the shaping and bringing to spec., rather time consuming work if you want to produce a really top quality consistent instrument. Don't forget you'll have to cut those pesky sockets and tenons at some point as well, about 8 or so. Let's hope we don't hit a weak spot in the wood and break a piece as we're doing the lathe work...damn those hidden defects in the wood!

Okay, so now it's on to the lathe finish work: Gotta go through at least 3 grades of sandpaper, then burnish with your shavings. Next a couple of coats of wax, or whatever you're using. Buff between each coat, then apply your final polishing product and buff one final time.

Don't forget to turn your endcap, (with tenon), then sand, wax, buff, etc.

Let's see what time is it...Yikes! Better get moving.....

We still need to glue up and install the two sections of tuning slide, and don't forget to cork or thread lap all the tenons and check for a good seal.

Okay, off to drill some holes! Eight to be exact, plus the embouchure. A really savy maker might have 3 or 4 jigs made up to save time with all the hole drilling, if not, better get to measuring, clamping, drilling, unclamping, and repeating...one at a time on the drill press. Whew!

Okay, finished with that right? Nope still need to undercut and chamfer at least six of those holes and insert the tuning cork, then fine tune the embouchure hole and overall tuning.

Ooops, I almost forgot to mount the metal joint bands, that won't do - don't want any cracks at the sockets, do we?

One final inspection, then spend another hour billing, packing, shipping the flute, and notifying the new owner of it's impending arrival.

Now I'm sure I've missed a bit or two in there Peter, and a fellow might want to have lunch at some point during the day I'd imagine. All in all, seems like a good bit more than one day's worth of work, especially if you have to deal with ANY sort of interruptions....but then that NEVER happens, does it?

Really Peter, I conceed that it may be possible to do all this work in the course of a day, if it were some sort of race conducted under ideal conditions. However, I find it hard to believe that any maker can knock out the kind of top quality, 5-6 piece keyless flutes that I'm thinking of, at anywhere near that speed on an ongoing basis.

So, were you talking about the same sort of flutes?

Loren

[dakotamouse]

I don't have a problem with telling it like it is but I do prefer tact. I really dislike Susato whistles but there are a lot of members who really like them. To make a statement like "Susatos suck" not only insults the whistle maker but the tastes of those who do like their Susatos. Anyone who wishes a more in depth explanation of why "I" don't care for Susatos can email me and I'll reply with my opinion which may or not be the same as others on the board.

Oh, and Susatos aren't the only one on my non prefered list. This was just an example.

Mary
da mouse

[Jens_Hoppe]

Yes, Copelands are seriously overpriced, in fact why don't one of you sell me a low D <i>real</i> cheap?

Seriously, you want overpriced? Take a look at this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dl ... 1495766595

Cheers,
Jens