Chiff and Fipple Forums

Now, by total coincidence, another piece of the puzzle put itself together today. I came across a fully finished tuning slide pair I'd prepared and set aside maybe 15 to 20 years back. It was in response to a flute customer remarking that if he or she (can't remember which!) wasn't fully happy with their selected embouchure, could I make another head to fit the same flute. Clearly they must have been happy, and I'd forgotten about the stashed slides until stumbling across them today.

So, in the light of our recent discussions on stuck slides, I wondered if anything bad might have happened to the pair over the intervening years. I'd left them assembled but not lubricated!

But no, no problems at all - they are still shiny and slide perfectly well. So, I think we can say with extremely high confidence that it's breath condensate that causes the problem. Again, a reminder to clean it off from time to time and certainly as soon as you notice any tightness or stickiness.

Steve Bliven wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 4:46 pm Drifting way off topic here but, what about the opposite condition — when the tuning slide moves too easily. When the head joint moves in or out or rotates while playing. How to stiffen it up a bit. Either on a whistle or a flute.

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

Plumbers' PTFE tape works as well as anything I've found, as it's very easy to adjust the thickness of the layer you apply. If you get it wrong first time, it's easy to remove it and start again.

The tape's slightly compressible, which helps get a good fit. I wind tape around the whistle body about three times, put the head on, and work it very gently from side to side to flatten the tape. I keep rotating it at different points until I've gone all the way around, then remove the head and add another layer or two of tape. That gives a very snug fit that still permits movement, and seems to last quite a long time.

I only play metal and plastic whistles, though, the material might not be suitable for wood.

what about the opposite condition — when the tuning slide moves too easily. When the head joint moves in or out or rotates while playing. How to stiffen it up a bit. Either on a whistle or a flute.

It depends on how loose the slide is, obviously, but a mix of vaseline and beeswax should usually do the trick, shouldn't it?

what about the opposite condition — when the tuning slide moves too easily. When the head joint moves in or out or rotates while playing. How to stiffen it up a bit. Either on a whistle or a flute.

Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 5:54 am It depends on how loose the slide is, obviously, but a mix of vaseline and beeswax should usually do the trick, shouldn't it?

Tried that and it wasn't "thick" enough to lessen the gap. Also tried archery string protectant, a thicker wax material. Still didn't do the trick. Guess I'll have to find a woodwind repair person to slightly enlarge the inner tubing. Or, the less preferable option of sending the head back to France to the maker. Frustrating 'cause it's just that tiny bit loose so's to have a mind of its own about where it wants to go.

Best wishes.

Steve

I was afraid the beeswax was a bit too obvious a a solution. A woodwind tech to, eh, enlarge the inner tube (nearly said 'male part' there ) is the next step.

Steve Bliven wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 9:18 am Tried that and it wasn't "thick" enough to lessen the gap.

Have you tried the PTFE tape that Moof has already recommended? It’s widely used for tightening loose woodwind joints. Colin Goldie also uses it for the tuning slides on his new whistles and describes what may well be what you need to do here.

Might be worth mentioning that my Syn Low D came with dental floss (instead of plumbers tape). Had it for about 3 years now and still fits well and I have yet to replace the dental floss.
Cheers

Now the dental floss is presumably instead of string, and I assume it's used on a tenon and socket joint, rather than a tuning slide? And I've certainly slammed some plumbers PTFE (Teflon) tape on a loose tenon joint from time to time, as a temporary measure. But I wouldn't have imagined it working on tuning slides. If you can get tape in there, the slide is surely far too loose!

My relatively recent Killarney whistle lies beside me as I type, and I suddenly wondered what they do to achieve a satisfactory fit. Pulled the head off, pausing to test the fit - I'd call that fit smooth but tight, a bit snatchy and a bit edgy. Edgy is when you can hear the slide being turned! Popped the head on the wrong end of the tube - aha - slides far too freely. So what's the difference in the two ends of the tube? Out with the calipers!

Bottom end of the tube is perfectly round at 12.69mm. Top end of the tube looks round to the naked eye, but in fact has been squished slightly. Smaller diameter is 12.62mm, larger comes in at 12.74mm. So note that that small amount of squishing - 0.07mm, or 2.7 thou - is enough to make all the difference.

Hmmm, should I just put the head back on the right end, or should I try to deal with the tight, snatchy and edgy? I'm upstairs in the office, and too lazy to go down for alcohol. So I dab the top of the tube with cork grease, smooth it round the tube and put it into the head. Twist it round a few times, and it's already feeling smoother. And quieter as I turn. Pull it out and the tube is covered with now dark grey grease. Clean that off with a tissue, regrease and repeat. More dark grey grease on tissue. Cleaned the outside, and crumpled the tissue into the head to clean the inside. Regrease and test. Reassuringly tight but not snatchy, and smooth not edgy. Perfect.

Now if we are talking tuning slides so loose you can get tape on them, squishing them a little to make them tight will probably work to keep them in place. But you'd need to make sure that they are not also leaking a bit of air. Cork grease is probably enough to achieve that.

Terry, cork grease sounds good, and is no doubt very mainstream. However, it is ever so slightly volatile and will, over time, dissipate, eventually calling for another schmeer. It also will attract dust and grime. Plumbers now have PTFE (teflon) grease which will not dissipate nor attract grime. Certainly a viable alternative.

Bob

Hello Terry, the dental floss is definitively used on the tuning slide on the Syn Low D. When I first looked at a Syn Low D say 4 to 5 years ago Erle Bartlett was using plumbers tape on the tuning slide of his low D’s. By the time I purchased one from him at a folk festival say 3 to 4 years ago he had switched to dental floss on the tuning slide. I can assure you that no air escapes through the joint.
Cheers

I’ve found waxed dental tape to be an excellent replacement for thread when wrapping tenons. Cork grease is great on cork and what is presumably the same stuff is also marketed directly for use on tuning slides. However, other lubricants are compounded for that purpose and come in different weights. Tuning slide lube is a stock music store item. I have no idea how it various from brand to brand but have had good results on tin whistles with the product available at https://www.ultrapureoils.com/product-p ... be-upo-reg and its lighter-weight variant.

JTU wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 10:49 pm Hello Terry, the dental floss is definitively used on the tuning slide on the Syn Low D. When I first looked at a Syn Low D say 4 to 5 years ago Erle Bartlett was using plumbers tape on the tuning slide of his low D’s. By the time I purchased one from him at a folk festival say 3 to 4 years ago he had switched to dental floss on the tuning slide. I can assure you that no air escapes through the joint.
Cheers

Ah, well clearly I'm behind the times. But, hey, at my age, what would you expect? And it seems we're talking more low whistles than trebles, and I have no experience of these whatsoever!

So, just to make sure I'm getting the full picture, am I right that we're talking a pair of metal tubes, like our old-fashioned tuning slides, but instead of them being engineered to be close fitting (indeed airtight!), we now allow them to be loose fitting, taking up the slack with teflon tape, dental floss or some other packing.

Am I finally on the right track? Or close? Or still missing the plot?

And I wonder if we should come up with a different name to differentiate such slides from their close-fitting predecessors? Packed slides? Wrapped slides?

Anyone with a pair of calipers like to put a figure on how loose a fit we're talking? EG, is it the difference between the ID of one of the commercially available thin-walled brass tubes and the OD of the next size down? Or is it significantly bigger?

Now, thinking back to tenon and socket joints, the tenon (the inside part) had a shallow trench cut in it to accept and contain the wrapping. Typically string in the early days, and cork later. And grooves incised across the bottom of the trench to minimise the tendency for string wrapping to bunch up. With these modern "wrapped" slides, does the inner slide have any such treatment, or do we rely on the inherent "stickiness" of the tape or floss or whatever to keep it in place? I'm imagining there isn't much scope for such a trench in thin-walled tubing!

stringbed wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 1:02 am I’ve found waxed dental tape to be an excellent replacement for thread when wrapping tenons. Cork grease is great on cork and what is presumably the same stuff is also marketed directly for use on tuning slides. However, other lubricants are compounded for that purpose and come in different weights. Tuning slide lube is a stock music store item. I have no idea how it various from brand to brand but have had good results on tin whistles with the product available at https://www.ultrapureoils.com/product-p ... be-upo-reg and its lighter-weight variant.

Now, I'm thinking that that product is designed for fast moving slides, like trombones. Our needs are probably less rigorous. Unless the air conditioning at your session pub is all over the place!

I should add I'm not meaning to promote cork grease as the ideal whistle slide lubricant. Just pushing the notion that any lubricant (*within reason?) is better than none.

*Within reason? Should we boil down rich people?

Terry McGee wrote: ↑ Now, I'm thinking that that product is designed for fast moving slides, like trombones.

Nope. Brass instrument tuning slides and trombone slides are polar opposites in terms of the way they need to be lubricated. The latter have to move at lightening speed without any sense of friction. The former need to stay securely put once in the desired position but also need to be easily adjusted and are frequently removed to empty condensation.

Our needs are probably less rigorous.

Trombones also have tuning slides and a trombonist’s kit includes both low viscosity trombone slide oil and higher viscosity tuning slide grease. The grease comes in several weights and in my experience does a good enough job in the context we’re discussing that I’ll persist in recommending it. The supplier I linked to in my preceding message lists their full range at https://www.ultrapureoils.com/all-products. Again, I have no idea how it compares to whatever anyone here would be able to obtain locally.

do we rely on the inherent "stickiness" of the tape or floss or whatever to keep it in place?

That’s one of the great advantages of waxed dental floss even when covering a rilled tenon, as is its long-term ability to withstand wear from movement in the socket. PTFE tape is significantly less robust mechanically but can be better at sealing really small gaps.

Anybody (perhaps Elspeth, the OP) know whether the whistle got unstuck?

Best wishes.

Steve