I don't like fast Irish tradition music. Give me my airs.

[talasiga]

yes, the Gaelic speaking tradition of Scotland is originally from Ireland (pre Norman takeover, if I recall history correctly).
The lament, as per pibroch, is considered by many the heart of traditional Scottish music. I conjecture that this pre-eminence is itself a reflection from a time when it was so in Ireland as if the Scottish high regard for the slow air is a time warp preservation of an ancient Irish regard.

[Makar]

This thread seems to be doing what I suspect it was aimed to do. However, now that it has gone down a different cul de sac of utter conjecture in terms of how our nation came to speak in whatever way - perhaps that topic could be started afresh somewhere else?

[highland-piper]

Yeah, I get you. Still, I like the dances more than the airs. But what I like is when they are played at a leisurely tempo, with a lot of style and personality. What is a leisurely tempo? However fast you can go and still play well, with a lot of style and personality. For a lot of great players, that's pretty bloody fast - and still they make it sound so comfortable.

It's a funny twist, that.

We have a medley in the band where our "slow air" is the fastest tempo. The march is at about 80, the reel, strathspey and jig are around 90, but the allegedly "slow" air clips along at 100. We do play the reel and the jig on the slow side, but the air is definitely not too fast.

[s1m0n]

Don't the Picts come into that somewhere ?

Yes, but not the part I was talking about. The picts were there before either but ended up with nothing. We still know almost nothing about what language they might have spoken; the sparse evidence gives approximately equal weight to theories that the picts spoke either insular or continental celtic, some other indo-european language, or a totally non i-e, unknown tongue.

[DrPhill]

The old Irish airs others are referring to are an entirely different matter. "Sean nos" singing (I think the proper translation is something like "old song" but certainly someone with some Irish can clarify) is music where the purpose of the melody is to support the words. There may be an outline tune that is metrically regular, but as soon as someone starts to sing that metric regularity disappears into the added notes, tempo changes etc. etc. If you want to interpret the music of sean nos singers yes you need to know the words and how they work with the tune. If you want to make some slow tune your own without that reference go to it. But be prepared to be pounced upon by those who realize you've done something truly awful when one considers the words. Or, stick to using slow tunes that are not based upon sean nos style. Like Minstrel Boy

I much prefer slow tunes and so have enjoyed this thread, and am grateful for the thoughtful suggestions others more knowledgeable than I have made.

I am not an expert on Sean Nos, Gaeilge, or whistle playing, but would like to add an observation or two. I am currently examining the song 'Bruach Na Carraige Baine', and trying to see if I can improve my playing by learning from singers of the song.

It is difficult to make a comment without lots of assumptions or provisos. I am assuming that this song falls into the category, that Seamus Begley and Mary Black are versed in authenticity, and that this recording is a good example.

I note that the styles of the two singers are different, that they breath in different places, that Mary uses shorter phrases (and more ornaments?) than Seamus. There is another recording of Mary singing this song (fewer verses) where I think (unsure - not enough listening yet) that she uses different phrasing from that which she does in the first mentioned recording.

I also note that there are at least two sets of lyrics (with very little similarity between them).

Add to this the lovely rendition by Joanie Madden (another valid proponent of the tradition?) in which the phrasing is different again and I think we could all agree that variation is the common theme.

So if you do get "...... pounced upon by those who realize you've done something truly awful when one considers the words." just ask "Which words? Which artist?"

FWIW: I think my playing of the tune is improving by listening and copying the phrasing (or maybe just practising), but I do not submit to the idea that the tradition is a straight-jacket. I see it as learning possibilities passed on by others, choosing those which I like, adding ones that seem right, and doing my best to entertain.

Oh dear, that tuned into a soap-box at the end. sorry.

[highland-piper]

So if you do get "...... pounced upon by those who realize you've done something truly awful when one considers the words." just ask "Which words? Which artist?"

I'd probably be more inclined to laugh and say, "Good thing I wasn't singing it, eh?" I might also hold out my whistle and ask the critic to play me his version.

Of course, people who really want to respect the tradition would probably eschew session playing, since it's origins are (as best I can tell) in living memory. At least that's what it says in the scholarly material I've read. But you should never let facts get in the way of tradition, right?

[Nanohedron]

"Sean nos" singing (I think the proper translation is something like "old song" but certainly someone with some Irish can clarify)

I did a quick look-thru and maybe I missed the clarification, but I didn't see it, so here goes: sean-nós is literally "old-custom", meaning of course "in the traditional manner". 'Round here we translate it as "old-style". Same difference, basically.

The term is commonly applied not only to singing but to stepdancing as well, such as would have been danced before the modern competiton-driven style evolved. You may find it interesting - or not - that certain ITM songs in the English language can fall under the auspices of "sean-nós", at least in competition. In the main the issue is about style and presentation more than anything else. That said, "Whiskey In The Jar" would not, I wager, fall under sean-nós.

In Irish conversation the term could have wider application, I suppose, such as when comparing "Pure Drop" with arranged music performances, thatched vs. asphalt shingled roofs or, these days, among pipers comparing uilleann pipes with vPipes ( ), but in usual English-language ITM parlance the term seems to be applied mainly to song and dance, so far as I've come across it.

[benhall.1]

Another succinct and to the point summary there ... Good job you got in with one, Nano - Al was starting to steal your territory ...

Mind you, I've always thought the term "Sean nos" was a bit redundant. I mean, at one time they just used to be called "songs" and "dances". I don't think it was felt necessary to qualify it further. These days, people seem to need their pigeon-holes ...

[Nanohedron]

Another succinct and to the point summary there ... Good job you got in with one, Nano - Al was starting to steal your territory ...

Strewth, I had to do something.

Mind you, I've always thought the term "Sean nos" was a bit redundant. I mean, at one time they just used to be called "songs" and "dances". I don't think it was felt necessary to qualify it further. These days, people seem to need their pigeon-holes ...

The older-syle Irish dancing has seen quite surge of general interest in my neck of the woods for some time now, and it's become - bassackwardly, really, when you think about it - now a subset of the whole "Irish dance" genre for us, a study in itself. I think we're atavists by nature. So anyway, to differentiate it from modern stepdancing, céilí dancing, or the sets, we do fall back on the term "sean-nós". Well, gotta categorise it somehow these days, I suppose.

[benhall.1]

Well, gotta categorise it somehow these days, I suppose.

Exactly.