Learning Rolls - but certain notes difficult

[Whistler from Oz]

Hi there
I'm learning the tin whistle from books and sites such as this one as there are no teachers to be found here in Australia.

I've hit some snags learning rolls.

Snag 1:top two holes - when fingers on the same hand are required to make the cut AND the tap. I'm finding the speed and quality just won't come and it feels very stange and unco-ordinated. The frustrating thing is that I have it going well on the bottom four holes.

Is there another way to do this, or is this just a stage to pass through??

Snag 2:
Rolls for certain notes don't seem possible, but appear in song books. For example trying a roll on these notes - D,C,C#

Any ideas are gratefully received.

Troy

[MTGuru]

Hi and welcome!

Is there another way to do [top rolls], or is this just a stage to pass through??

It's normal. The top notes are the hardest to roll cleanly. Coordination comes with practice and use, and may literally take years.

See this thread for a hint on rolling the A: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=74590&p=957882#p957882

Rolls for certain notes don't seem possible, but appear in song books. For example trying a roll on these notes - D,C,C#

Generic song books - you probably mean tune books - and transcriptions are not necessarily written with whistle/winds in mind. Every instrument has limitations. Fiddle can roll those notes, so they are sometimes marked as such, but winds generally can't or don't. D can be cranned instead of rolled. C/C# can be rolled, but are usually not. Other ornamental and melodic techniques are applied instead.

[m31]

To play good A and B rolls, consider:

1) finger independence
2) minimizing finger tension; tension slows you down, reduces endurance, and messes up 3)
3) timing, which is knowing how they should sound in in your mind's "ear"
4) the finger pad should land squarely on the hole; accuracy reduces the need for finger pressure and thus unnecessary tension

Rolls can be practiced without actually blowing, which means you can practice them almost anywhere (e.g., in front of the TV or while reading C&F). Start slowly and repeat about 1000 times, while building up speed. Then repeat again with air. Finally, work 'em into your tunes. Second octave A and B rolls are harder to get right.

[caedmon]

D/C/C#?

If that is 2nd-octave D, that be:
D C C#
o o o
x x o
x x o
x o o
x o o
x o o

?

Of course, I just tried to finger and almost dropped my whistle. That c-nat doesn't work on all D whistles, either.

[Mitch]

Hi Whistler,

Are you coming to the National folk Festival in Canberra this Easter?

If so - drop into the instrument-maker's display at the Quoka and we can look at your technique questions in person.

[pancelticpiper]

Yes many beginners find the rolls that divide the work between the two hands easier. A couple old Irish players have told me that that's why the upper-hand ring finger is used to cut lower-hand rolls.

To get the one-hand rolls on A and B to sound the same as the other rolls simply takes a lot of practice.

I have beginners practice doing rolls on every note from Bottom D to High B with a metronome so that they all are timed the same. This forces the beginner to play clean, clearly articulated rolls and avoid 1) making their rolls inarticulate blobs and 2) the tendency to time various rolls differently.

For C natural I use the fingering oxx oox. Patting the two raised lower-hand fingers makes a D cut, patting the one raised upper-hand finger makes a G pat.

The rolls on Bottom D and Middle D aren't true rolls but "semi-crans" as I call them. Any two of the three traditional cranning digits can be used. I divide the work between the two hands, using the upper-hand ring finger and the lower-hand index finger. The important thing is the timing: if you time it like a roll is comes out sounding like a roll.

Just on Sunday at the session we played a jig which, when I play it, has rolls on C natural and Middle D right out of the chute:

| FED C~ | d~ efg | fed Cag | F~ GFE | etc.

[Whistler from Oz]

Thanks everyone who responded to my questions - I've moved along the continuum now and playing all those rolls with improving speed. I can see you need the repetition to set up the muscle memory for the particular movements required. You are all right when you say it takes time. I'm learning from the L E McCullough book, which seems to be a good starting point.

I just found a book in the back of in an Australian music shop O'Neills 1001 Irish tunes and snapped it up. What a find! Love the Tunes.

Mitch from Australia - no I wasn't even aware there was a Folk festival in Canberra. If I can get there I will come and see you. I checked out your site and it looks great. I haven't found too many others in Australia who learn the whistle.
Cheers

Troy

[Ceili_whistle_man]

Where are you in Australia Troy?
There are many more whistle players down this end of the world than you would think mate.

[Whistler from Oz]

Where are you in Australia Troy?
There are many more whistle players down this end of the world than you would think mate.

Hi There

I'm in North Brisbane

Cheers

Troy