How much ornamentation is enough?

[Denny]

(Just wait until I start asking about melodic variation, that should be fun.....)

Someone light the fire under the tar,
I'm off to collect some feathers.

[StevieJ]

Now, if a tune has three G's in a row and you seperate them with gracenotes, forming a "roll", how is that any more "ornamentational" than if the three notes were seperated by the tongue? The gracenotes are of such short duration that they're not heard as notes but as articulations upon the note G, and have little ornamentational impact. Moreover, these "rolls" are not superfluous to the tune but are essential to it. So, being neither decorative nor superfluous, I don't consider single gracenotes and the rolls constructed out of them to be "ornaments".

I agree - but in most cases your three Gs in a row are one choice among many possibilities. To use the example of Morrison's Jig taken by highland-piper, it is perfectly possible to play the entire tune very satisfactorily (and quite "traditionally") without playing a single roll.

I don't care for the term "ornamentation" myself but when, for example, many players erode the melody in esp. jigs by playing rolls in place of something more interesting than EDE or GAG, they are doing so out of choice and because they think (emphasis on they) the tune will sound better that way. So really they are ornamenting, attempting to beautify or add style to the tune.

BTW highland-piper, if you're playing a whistle that won't allow you to jump from e to a without tonguing - well I wouldn't call such an instrument a whistle at all.

[highland-piper]

BTW highland-piper, if you're playing a whistle that won't allow you to jump from e to a without tonguing - well I wouldn't call such an instrument a whistle at all.

On Cathal McConnel's instruction tape, iirc, he advocates tonguing and/or sliding into the high notes (2nd octave G & higher) as a general practice. But I haven't listened to that part in a long time.

I mainly play Susato and Clarke.

[Steve Bliven]

To work with a live example, how would folks consider the version here. Too little ornamentation, too much, just right, or "other". And perhaps more importantly, what criteria did you use to come to that conclusion.

(Delicacy caveat.... I don't know who the player is; he may be on the list. I just happened to pick this one out as I've been working with this tune, not because I liked or disliked the arrangement.)

Best wishes.

Steve

[benhall.1]

I think that's a great version - it's not how I've heard the tune, but it's certainly lovely playing and easy to pick up on what the guy is doing.

I reckon the ornamentation is about right for me. Probably because it seems to me that it's about right for him.

[straycat82]

I don't disagree with pancelticpiper but I would suggest that there are times when a roll would be cosidered ornamental. For example, if a player were to intentionally put a roll into a phrase for the purpose of adding a lift to the upbeat or adding emphasis to the downbeat, that is ornamenting/colouring/articulating the tune, is it not?
Thoughts?

[lesl]

I used to have a lot of similar questions myself - I think one of the most important things is listening, which I haven't heard mentioned as a solution in this thread. You could listen to lots of airs if you want to play slow airs, and listen for the ways they are played. You could listen to just one player and how that person plays different tunes.. you could listen to a lot of different players from one area, or lots of different players from different areas.. but the more you listen and sort of get it into your mind, the more you will have certainty on whether you should 'ornament more or less' or do various decorations or kinds of phrasings, etc. And when I say 'the more you listen' I mean kind of saturating yourself with the music. - hope this is helpful, it certainly was for me.

[DrPhill]

Thankyou all for considered replies. It seems that the appropriate level of ornamentation is, in the final call, a personal thing.

From the discussion I take the following message: There are some ornaments (and I use the term loosely) which are so regularly used at a certain point in a certain tune that their description as mere ornaments could be disputed. There are also cases where the majority of people would consider the ornamentation overdone. And in between these two is a great grey area where individual tastes may vary.

Saturation listening was mentioned late in the discussion, and this is the method I have been using most. Find a version that moves me, listen (endlessly) and play along (endlessly). It is not always a whistle piece that moves me most though, although I do have and like a lot of Joanie Madden recordings. It is as likely to be a vocal, fiddle or even guitar recording that I try to play to which gives me less 'instruction' for ornament.


I started this topic because of a constructive comment made about my version of 'Cape Clear '- try more ornamentation. I recorded 'Staker Wallace' in the hope of hitting peoples upper limits for too much ornamentation, but either failed or you were all too polite. With my 'Niel Gows Lamment' I thought the ornamentation about right for me - the ornaments seemed to want to be there. If anyone cares to comment I would welcome the input.

[benhall.1]

From the discussion I take the following message: There are some ornaments (and I use the term loosely) which are so regularly used at a certain point in a certain tune that their description as mere ornaments could be disputed. There are also cases where the majority of people would consider the ornamentation overdone. And in between these two is a great grey area where individual tastes may vary.

I'm not really adding much here ... but just to say ... Phill, that is an absolutely classic comment. One of the best posts I've read on this forum. Next time I need a nail hitting squarely ...

Good man!