As far as the subject: I don't necessarily think the ability of the whistle player makes that much difference to me. What does matter is whether there are clips/sound samples or not and that they are recorded "straight" - i.e. not processed with reverb or covered up by other instruments etc. What I want to hear is the whistle and it's tone, sound, breathiness, it's range and responsiveness. If the sound sample demonstrates these qualities then I can generally determine if it is for me or not.
I agree with you there but the skill of the player is directly related to tone, responsiveness, sound and tuning. A good player will bring these out and, my point, a poorly skilled one is forever under or overblowing notes and trying to catch up with him/herself or in other words: failing to bring the whistle's potential across and that's where I start this discussion.
Certainly some truth in that. I see your point. I wouldn't want to try to judge a whistle's responsiveness based on a beginner's (like myself) playing.
Dood, eh? I usually take umbrage at that term !!
Make you a low D? I don't know, I don't usually take orders.
I can post a sound sample.
Check your pm.
Sorry Peter, back to the topic.
I don't have any disagreements about the quality of clips and such, but I do want to stress that I don't believe there is any lack of suitable information to make a whistle choice. Between video/audio/written reviews, video/audio clips, photos, descriptions and word of mouth, there should be some valuable information out there for those wishing to find a whistle that suits them. It may not all be available on the maker's site, but is usually out there for the finding. No one is suggesting that anyone need make a completely random decision here. Hopefully one would go into the purchase making an informed decision rather than a random one. I do agree that each maker such make certain efforts to make sound clips available, some don't have the time, resources or maybe the inclination to do so. In those cases, I can usually find the information I need elsewhere.
Aside from buying one of whatever is for sale out there, and playing it, good clips done by good players will give the average buyer an idea of what can come out of the whistle. Unless you are an expert player, or think you are, you really ought not expect to duplicate the sounds you heard from a well done straight up clip (no fakey stuff please) right out of the box, but it does give you and idea of where you can go with the whistle.
It doesn't make sense to publish any sort of sound clip that doesn't show the wares at their best. Since what we are looking for in any musical instrument is it's characteristic sound over anything else, clips can play an important part in choosing an instrument. The makers really ought to give themselves the best shot by having well-done clips for potential buyers. It isn't all you use to make your purchase, but good sound clips help. If I was a manufacturer of a whistle, I would have sound clips everywhere I could, done by the best I could persuade to do them.
So, do I sense there is a consensus regarding my original point: that it makes sense for a maker to have clips showing his/her product to it's potential and no sense to have mediocre poorly played clips that don't? That the former may sway an interested party towards a positive purchasing decision while the latter can turn a potential buyer away?
If that is the case, C&F has changed, in the past I have been shouted at for making this point (which may have had to do with the moments I blurted out the thought) and tempers have run high.
Thanks for the contributions so far and for not making this personal slagging match in any way.
Any other can of worms we can make our peace with?
Peter Laban wrote:So, do I sense there is a consensus regarding my original point: that it makes sense for a maker to have clips showing his/her product to it's potential and no sense to have mediocre poorly played clips that don't? That the former may sway an interested party towards a positive purchasing decision while the latter can turn a potential buyer away?
If that is the case, C&F has changed, in the past I have been shouted at for making this point (which may have had to do with the moments I blurted out the thought) and tempers have run high.
Thanks for the contributions so far and for not making this personal slagging match in any way.
Any other can of worms we can make our peace with?
Well, except that I'd rather have clips than not (regardless of the playing ability), that way I can at least judge the sound/tone to some extent and if the playing is poor then I can take that into account with regard to sound/tone production.
KAC
P.S. I've yet to hear any _really_ poor clips on builders websites. If you want to PM me with links I'd be glad to listen and pass judgement.
kennychaffin wrote:P.S. I've yet to hear any _really_ poor clips on builders websites. If you want to PM me with links I'd be glad to listen and pass judgement.
I'm not going to single anyone out — I think that would be rude — but as the person who maintains the Open Directory's list of whistle makers, I've heard more than my share of terrible sound clips. Feel free to browse the sites in the directory, and decide for yourself.
kennychaffin wrote:P.S. I've yet to hear any _really_ poor clips on builders websites. If you want to PM me with links I'd be glad to listen and pass judgement.
I'm not going to single anyone out — I think that would be rude — but as the person who maintains the Open Directory's list of whistle makers, I've heard more than my share of terrible sound clips. Feel free to browse the sites in the directory, and decide for yourself.
That's why I said to PM me. I certainly would not make public that sort of thing.
Last edited by kennychaffin on Thu May 15, 2008 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
Peter Laban wrote:If that is the case, C&F has changed, in the past I have been shouted at for making this point (which may have had to do with the moments I blurted out the thought) and tempers have run high.
Reason is abandoned when new whistle maker or a player of sound samples needs to be protected. It is considered so enormously unpleasant to read any criticism that the priority becomes to take the author of the criticism down a notch, while the point that a bad sound sample may suggest a bad whistle is lost. So it's great to get some basic agreement in the abstract on the desirability of good sound samples.
Bloomfield wrote:
Reason is abandoned when new whistle maker or a player of sound samples needs to be protected. It is considered so enormously unpleasant to read any criticism that the priority becomes to take the author of the criticism down a notch, while the point that a bad sound sample may suggest a bad whistle is lost. So it's great to get some basic agreement in the abstract on the desirability of good sound samples.
I realise I have in the past had a way of not picking the right moment, yet it is a bit of a breath of fresh air to hear reasonable agreement (maybe the opponents of the thought have just lost the will to argue it again).
Even the piping forum has raised the question of poor player=poor maker again, let's see how that develops
Last edited by Cayden on Thu May 15, 2008 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
In reply to the original subject, I would think that clear sound samples played by experienced players wouldn't hurt for the website. One reason, it seems most newer players, or some anyway, when having heard some brilliant whistle playing, usually end up wanting that whistle thinking it'll help them play as good as the player on the recordings... My personal take on it is, I'd rather just play the thing myself and give a yes or no. Sound is one thing, but also how it plays matters to me as well, I'm not sure listening to someone play a whistle can tell you how well it will play in your hands, or if you will like how it plays or not... Just my 2 cents.
Peter Laban wrote:
Even the piping forum has raised the question of poor player=poor maker again, let's see how that develops
For pipes the proposition that the maker needs to be a good player seems self-evident; for whistles I think it's arguable (although the worst whistles I've played were made by people who didn't play well---which only goes to one side of the issue).
Bloomfield wrote:[...] for whistles I think it's arguable [...]
My speculation is that while it's not strictly necessary to be an expert player in order to be a good instrument maker, it will certainly help. But if you are not an expert player, then you must have access to one (or more!), in order to give you expert-level feedback on your products.
Peter Laban wrote:
Even the piping forum has raised the question of poor player=poor maker again, let's see how that develops
For pipes the proposition that the maker needs to be a good player seems self-evident; for whistles I think it's arguable (although the worst whistles I've played were made by people who didn't play well---which only goes to one side of the issue).
Which brings up a corollary question of whether a good whistle can be made by a bad player.
I agree with Bloomfield the matter is arguable for the whistle, but up to a point only: anyone with skill and the right tools can make a functioning whistle but if you go 'designer' (and the unfortunate assumption is once something isn't mass produced, then it must be 'designer' or 'high end', or so it seems) would you trust someone with, say, poor breath control to sit down and do your voicing, let's say sweeten a harsh high B, balance your octaves or fine tune the notes? It's there matters become tricky but it is also just there where the benefits of a handmade (or 'tweaked') whistle come into play. It's also there that a 'vision' of what the maker is trying to achieve is of importance, where the craftsman meets the musician. What will be the result if either is lacking in skill and vision?
!!
