C natural fingering question...

[fipple]

Hi,

Hi... I am a complete newbie to the forum and have just purchased my first Irish whistles.

A little background: Some time ago I decided to learn the fife. All went well and I was learning quickly, but it is so LOUD. Even with the windows closed the neighbors can hear it for nearly a mile (I am told).

I decided on the Irish whistle as a replacement given its lovely sound and quiet nature. I purchased a Walton's beginner's pack with brass Soprano D, book, and DVD (which will not play in our computer or DVD player!). I have just ordered the Clarke Deluxe book (by Ochs) and CD along with a Dixon brass D “Trad.”

My question: Today I decided to learn "O' Them Golden Slippers." In this song the C's are natural. The fingering for the whistle indicates OXX OOO for C natural. I found (while fumbling for that fingering) that OXO OOO plays the same note. I compared them quite carefully by starting with one and adding (or removing) one finger slowly to see if I could perceive any change in the note, and found none... it is the same note fingered wither way on this whistle. I did a quick Google search to see if this is an alternate fingering for C natural, but did not see anything indicating that it is.

Is this just a nuance to the Walton soprano D? I want to lean the proper way to play, and I am tempted to use the OXO OOO fingering because it is quicker and easier for me, rather than the OXX OOO.

I appreciate your help and comments.

Robert in Ohio

[fearfaoin]

Every whistle has its own nuance concerning Cnatural. Many do pretty well
with 0XX000, a very few can pull off 0X0000, but most cheap whistles need
something more like 0XXX00 or 0XXX0X. There is no real "right" way to do
it; the idea is to learn what works for each whistle you play. Your experiment-
ation so far is the right idea.

[highwood]

There was a recent thread on Cnat fingerings and I'm sure there are many others if you search.
The fingering to use is the one that works with your whistle - oxxooo is listed on charts but what works depends on the whistle and the context of the music.
Are you sure that oxxooo and oxoooo are the same? I would expect oxxooo to be a little flatter and adding more fingers oxxoox, or oxxoxo, or oxxxoo, or .... well you get the idea will give you even flatter Cnats.

[Denny]

most anything....

do leave the top hole open

[fipple]

Hello and thank you for the replies.

I suspected there was no “right” way, but more an accepted fingering.

I was asked if I am certain that oxo ooo and oxx ooo sound the same… well, no, I am not entirely certain, but to my ear they do. When I switch between the fingerings, the only perceptible change to me is one of airflow… the note does not seem to change.

I will try the other suggested fingerings to see if there is a change.

I have noticed that I cannot get a pure, solid tone from this whistle. I found a way to play my Walton’s DVD, and the instructor (using the same whistle) is able to produce such a strong, solid tone. While I can produce the tones, I tend to get more “chiff” (I think this is the right term?).

Is this just breathing control, or, is this a characteristic (nuance) of my particular whistle? I have no others to compare to just now, so I am curious. It still produces a lovely sound, just not as “solid” or “pure” as the notes the DVD instructor plays.

Appreciate any input…

Robert in Ohio

[squidgirl]

Individual whistles by the same manufacturer do vary, but a lot of it is just learning breath control, and how the shape of the mouth and throat can make low or high notes sound cleaner or stronger (or cracked and warbly). All that stuff just takes a bit of time and experience and experimentation to learn.

Just in case it is the whistle, one basic thing I do to any new whistle is to pull off the plastic fipple head and inspect inside, to make sure there's no extra bits of plastic clinging in there, which can make it sound funky. I also peer down the tube to make sure there's nothing in there -- sometimes the tube can shave little curls of plastic off the fipple as it's put on.

Good ways to start learning breath control include playing looooong steady low notes, and also alternating upper and lower octave versions of the same note (e.g. low G - high G - low G - hi G). Go up and down the scale, doing low and high octove versions of each note. At first you may need to tongue the high notes to get a clean shift, but you want to eventually learn to do it with just your breath. And don't forget those long, steady low notes!

[fipple]

Individual whistles by the same manufacturer do vary, but a lot of it is just learning breath control, and how the shape of the mouth and throat can make low or high notes sound cleaner or stronger (or cracked and warbly). All that stuff just takes a bit of time and experience and experimentation to learn.

Just in case it is the whistle, one basic thing I do to any new whistle is to pull off the plastic fipple head and inspect inside, to make sure there's no extra bits of plastic clinging in there, which can make it sound funky. I also peer down the tube to make sure there's nothing in there -- sometimes the tube can shave little curls of plastic off the fipple as it's put on.

Good ways to start learning breath control include playing looooong steady low notes, and also alternating upper and lower octave versions of the same note (e.g. low G - high G - low G - hi G). Go up and down the scale, doing low and high octove versions of each note. At first you may need to tongue the high notes to get a clean shift, but you want to eventually learn to do it with just your breath. And don't forget those long, steady low notes!

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I did the checks you mentioned (interior), and all looks fine. I will definately try the exercises you mention.

Thanks again.

Robert in Ohio

[swizzlestick]

The actual meaning of chiff is a matter of debate around here, but you can read all about that in older posts. (I do not think it means what you think it means.)

Remember that you, as player, hear all kinds of texture in the sound that never makes it to your audience. Or to a microphone unless it is very close.

As with any instrument, your sound will improve with time. However, I would withhold judgment until you get a chance to hear a recording of yourself at a bit of a distance.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

Hi Fipple, Welcome to the house of fun!!!
I am not familiar with the DVD you are talking about or who the tutor would be but there is also the possiblity that the tutor is playing a 'tweaked' whistle: that is, it has had all the rough bits and edges from manufacture smoothed off and possibly holes redrilled to be correctly in tune with itself. Similar to what Squidgirl alluded to.
I would say also that there will be breath control issues with you (for a while) as you get to know the requirements of your particular whistle.
From the Waltons whistles I have bought (for whistle students) I have never had one that would play nicely 'straight off the shelf' so to speak.
They have all required some form of tweaking to make for a cleaner sound. This can happen with most off the shelf, or should I say mass produced whistles.
Happy whistling!

[brewerpaul]

Sheesh, how many times do I have to tell you people?
Learn to half hole C nat!! It will work on every whistle, in every key. Plus, that same skill will allow you to play a decent F nat, G#, Bb etc.

[fipple]

Hi. I appreciate all of the great replies and advice, thank you.

My daughter (9) heard me playing and really enjoyed it, so she has asked if she can learn to play too. So, the kids are off school today (teacher's meetings), and we headed down to a big music store to get her set up.

They sell only Clarke’s there, but I wanted to try them, so I bought her one, and one for myself. They also had the Clarke C for $7.00, so I bought one of those.

Of course we raced home and tried them out, and there was an immediate difference. The D,E, and F are much easier to hit and "cleaner" on the Clarke. I was looking around online and could not find this particular model though... it seems to be a one piece metal whistle with a wooden fipple. All of the Clarke's I see online have the plastic mouthpiece?

I also played with the Clarke C, and wow... what a beautiful sound. I can go right up and down the scale hitting each note fully, and getting a nice tone (no squeaks). I played O’ Susana” real quick and it was just lovely!

I picked up the Walton's D and found that it needs a firmer lip than the Clarke’s. This is all part of the learning process, I know, and I am enjoying it. I also love the different texture of sound from each of the whistles.

brewerpaul: How does one play the natural C by half holing it? Do you mean covering only half of the holes on the note oxx ooo?

Robert in Ohio

[fearfaoin]

Sheesh, how many times do I have to tell you people?
Learn to half hole C nat!! It will work on every whistle, in every key. Plus, that same skill will allow you to play a decent F nat, G#, Bb etc.

You sound like Mike Sindt!

fipple, to half hole a Cnatural means to cover the top hole only half-way.
The easiest way to learn this is to play a B, then slowly pivot your index finger
so that the fingertip is raising up at an angle to the whistle. This will slowly
raise the pitch from a B (where the hole is fully covered) to a C# (where the
hole is totally uncovered). Somewhere between those 2 points is a perfect
Cnatural. You have to use your ears to find the right amount of hole-coverage
on your whistle.

[squidgirl]

I was looking around online and could not find this particular model though... it seems to be a one piece metal whistle with a wooden fipple. All of the Clarke's I see online have the plastic mouthpiece?

The kind of Clarke you have is the Original, made of rolled metal with a wooden fipple plug (no plastic parts). The kind of Clarke with the plastic fipple is the Sweetone (or Meg).

You may notice that the Clarke whistles have a "conical bore" -- they taper slightly. Your Waltons, on the other hand, has just a plain cylindrical tube. This is part of what makes them sound so different.

A couple of my favorite whistles are Waltons... but they did need tweaking to bring out their best sounds, at least to my ear.

[Bloomfield]

My question: Today I decided to learn "O' Them Golden Slippers." In this song the C's are natural. The fingering for the whistle indicates OXX OOO for C natural. I found (while fumbling for that fingering) that OXO OOO plays the same note. I compared them quite carefully by starting with one and adding (or removing) one finger slowly to see if I could perceive any change in the note, and found none... it is the same note fingered wither way on this whistle. I did a quick Google search to see if this is an alternate fingering for C natural, but did not see anything indicating that it is.

Is this just a nuance to the Walton soprano D? I want to lean the proper way to play, and I am tempted to use the OXO OOO fingering because it is quicker and easier for me, rather than the OXX OOO.

I appreciate your help and comments.

Robert in Ohio

Sounds to me like you are overblowing the c-natural (blowing to hard). oxo ooo should be noticeably sharper than oxx ooo.

[fipple]

Hi,

Again, thank you all for the nice replies.

fearfaoin: Thank you. I will try that C natural fingering.

squidgirl: Thanks for the info on the Clarke. It does seem a bit "breathy," but I like the sound.

I bought myself another Walton D while we were out, and the difference between the two Walton’s is noticeable. This new one is much easier to play. I found the tweak section on the main page, and I might try some of those for fun.

Robert in Ohio