And the best Cnat fingering is...

[walrii]

I've started tweaking my cheapies to match my personal beath pressure schedule. On several whistles (Feadog, Generation, Walton) I carved out the top hole so the C# would play in tune with the same breath pressure as the B below it and the D above it. I did this without checking the effect on the Cnat (novice whistler morphs into novice tweaker). Interestingly, all three now pay Cnat in tune with OXX XXO. On these whistles, OXX OOO and OXX XOO are way sharp and OXX XOX is annoyingly sharp. FWIW.

[Key_of_D]

Perhaps whatever works best for you? just a thought...

[Rob Sharer]

OK, if a vote is called for, I'd vote for oxx xox because that seems to be the commonest.

Commonest by what measure? I'd say that oxx ooo is far more common, by the simple measure of how many people do it that way most of the time, which in my experience is nearly everybody you'd meet out and about at sessions everywhere. Cheers,

Rob

[jemtheflute]

OK, if a vote is called for, I'd vote for oxx xox because that seems to be the commonest.

Commonest by what measure? I'd say that oxx ooo is far more common, by the simple measure of how many people do it that way most of the time, which in my experience is nearly everybody you'd meet out and about at sessions everywhere. Cheers,

Rob

Quite right to question the parameters, Rob. We certainly have a possible dichotomy over "best": do we mean "handiest in actual playing regardless of sound" or do we mean "best tone and intonation when tested", either abstractly or in playing context? I think this thread is primarily (but not exclusively) about acoustical qualities and technical possibilities, not playing habits and preferences. Likewise with how "common" a particular fingering possibility is.

To clarify, I wasn't talking about what most players do, but what seems to work best on the majority of whistles. Yes, that is an "in my experience" observation, but I have tried a good few (!) different whistles over many years and usually check out precisely this question on any whistle I pick up (equivalent thing on flutes too). It's not a scientific survey, but it is fairly empirical and more than just an impression or a pre-judged, value laden preference. I fully recognise the fact that a clear majority of both flute and whistle players use oxx ooo (because they were taught to and most don't question it, seemingly, or, like Martin/Bothrops, find it harder to change than they feel it is worth) regardless of whether it is actually, demonstrably, the best in tune, strongest toned fingering available on any particular instrument. I'm quite happy to admit when a fingering other than my own familiar playing preference is clearly functionally the best. However, I fail to understand why many competent players may insist on sticking with a fingering that can be shown empirically to be deficient on their own specific instrument when a better is often available and has other advantages and only requires a small affort to adapt to.

This is digressing a touch from this thread's point, but to further clarify, I have also argued elsewhere for the playing advantages of oxo xxx and oxx xox over oxx ooo in sequential fingering changes and ornamentation, but always taking into account which works best on a particular instrument, and also admitting that there are instruments (my own piccolo is one) on which oxx ooo is the best and necessary fingering for Cnat at the top of the 1st octave. As my previous posts should make clear, I use different fingerings on different instruments because I try to play each as best I can.

I do think that if a careful survey of a selection of whistles was undertaken, several players checking the alternative cross fingering possibilities of each against a tuner and a composite result being compiled giving both the best absolute intonation as measured and also the players' subjective assessment of best sound (best in tune may not have best tone!), that oxx xox would almost certainly prove the commonest optimum fingering on cylindrical bore whistles. Anyone want to set about it, oh ye whistle collectors?

P.S. I fully admit, it does frustrate me when some people insist that oxx ooo is the one-and-only-authentic-traditional ITM-way when it is often sharp (on whistles, more often flat on flutes), weak, awkward..... regardless that most (and many very fine players) use it most! Why?

[Rob Sharer]

Those four-fingered Cnat fingerings are all well and good in their place, but in a sprightly jig or reel they can be totally useless. Any tune with a quick B-C-B sequence, Queen of the Rushes, say, will be hard to execute cleanly with that many fingers in play. In fact, I've never noticed anyone trying it that way at speed. That doesn't mean there isn't some masochist out there waving his digits about...


Rob

[jemtheflute]

Those four-fingered Cnat fingerings are all well and good in their place, but in a sprightly jig or reel they can be totally useless. Any tune with a quick B-C-B sequence, Queen of the Rushes, say, will be hard to execute cleanly with that many fingers in play. In fact, I've never noticed anyone trying it that way at speed. That doesn't mean there isn't some masochist out there waving his digits about...


Rob

Like I said, I was thinking about just sound, not playing (though I really do disagree with you that it's hard/harder)!: but there's a challenge in there! I've no time today, but I play Q o t R! I can feel a clip coming on - watch this space!

[Key_of_D]

By 4 fingered C natural I assume you meant oxxxox? If so, playing b-c-b is a piece of cake using the 4 fingered C. All you do is, leave lower hand ring finger on it's tone hole, or B3, play B like this: XOOOOX, then your next fingering would be OXXXOX, then of course back to B. You may have not met anybody using those fingerings at speed, but I guess you haven't met me either... It's really not that all difficult, like most things in music, you have to practice to become proficient.

Thruth be told, I've found in a lot of cases the 4 fingered C to be easier then the standard 2 fingered or OXXOOO for the confused, as a lot of times it's less fingers to move for example coming down from middle D to C, all I have to do is raise one finger, my driving finger, vs having to lift 3 fingers for the standard 2 finger C. Or to reverse that, coming from C up to middle D, all I have to do is close one finger, my driving finger, and there you go, middle D. But I usually play my middle D's vented, so, this a case in what works best for me.... sound familiar?

Like all things in life though, nothing is perfect, and the 4 fingered C can turn into quite the finger twister for some tunes, (Castle Kelly rings a bell) in such cases I usually resort to the 2 or 3 fingered C, OXXOOO or OXXXOO. Even then, I still find myself in practice time, striving to put in that 4 fingered C just for the challange of it, but that's me.

I like the 4 fingered C especially for the cheapy whistles I play, like the Generations and Feadogs the standard 2 finger sounds a wee sharp on these whistles, unless you can blow that note softly at speed, if you can more power to you. So like I said, it's all about what works best for you...

Cheers,

[Bothrops]

I think that the problem would be solved if, in case you had to play with more people and you SHOULD be in tune, you pick up any whistle with a good Cnat with the fingering that you prefer.
Let's clarify.. If I'm playing alone, I don't matter if the tuning is perfect, so, I'll play the Cnat OXXOOO (my "favorite" Cnat fingering, because it's the one I learnt, and it's the easiest to me) in any whistle.
If I had to play with more people and I have to be in tune, I will simply play with a whistle that has a nice, in tune, OXXOOO Cnat. Why do you complicate everything?

[Key_of_D]

Complicate everything? I just do what's best for me... The whole point I've been trying to make here. I play Feadogs and Generations because I can play them better then any other whistle. I couldn't play a Copeland, or a Susato the way I can play my Generation and Feadog, so why would I go through all that hassel trying to learn to play another whistle simply because it has a good in tune 2 fingered C natural?? That doesn't make very much sense now does it. For the Generations and FEadogs, I've found that the 4 fingered C is better in tune than the 2 finger C, so it would make sense and behoove the player to finger your C's on these whistles the 4 fingered way don't you think? There are some whistles, usually the 'higher end' whistles that have a very in tune 2 fingered C, I believe Burkes can be fingered in such a manner, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know about you but when I'm out of tune, or the instrument is out of tune with itself, it bugs the bejebus out of me, especially on the pipes, so I strive for having an instrument in tune with itself, then in tune with everybody else. I'm not complicating anything but rather striving for excellence in the best way I can. Just because something is 'easier' or that's the way you were taught, doesn't always justify it, or make it 'better'.

Happy whistling,

[Cayden]

Those four-fingered Cnat fingerings are all well and good in their place, but in a sprightly jig or reel they can be totally useless. Any tune with a quick B-C-B sequence, Queen of the Rushes, say, will be hard to execute cleanly with that many fingers in play. In fact, I've never noticed anyone trying it that way at speed. That doesn't mean there isn't some masochist out there waving his digits about...


Rob

G'wan now Rob, don't be silly. it's whatever you used to and not at all difficult to execute. And people do actually use it.

[Bothrops]

Pardon me, Key_Of_D. Maybe I wasn't clear, I was speaking generally, and my previous message wasn't directed specially for you.
Sure, it's fine if you are doing well fingering the Cnat OXXXOX or whatever it fits better for you!
I just wanted to say that nobody has to doom themselves learning to half-hole the Cnat at lightning speed, or learn another fingering for it if they don't want to.
Particularly, as I said, I have many whistles with a good, in tune Cnat fingered OXXOOO. So, if I had to play with more people I would use one of those whistles.

Regarding to playing a sharp instrument for ourselves, of course it su**s. For that reason I try to buy nice whistles ("nice" doesn't mean "expensive"). Anyways, if some are A BIT sharp, I don't think we can know it, unless we check it with a tuner.

Cheers,
Martin

[Rob Sharer]

G'wan now Rob, don't be silly. it's whatever you used to and not at all difficult to execute. And people do actually use it.

All right, all right. I don't really know what everyone in the world does. I still think it's more likely for a piper to come out defending that fingering than someone from the flute axis. Cheers,

Rob

[Key_of_D]

All right, all right. I don't really know what everyone in the world does. I still think it's more likely for a piper to come out defending that fingering than someone from the flute axis. Cheers,

Rob

Well put, and true! At least for me, since I'm a piper. Piper or not, it's a better in tune fingering on the cheapies I described above so even a fiddler would be wise to use the 4 fingered fork on those whistles. Each to their own of course...

[jemtheflute]

G'wan now Rob, don't be silly. it's whatever you used to and not at all difficult to execute. And people do actually use it.

All right, all right. I don't really know what everyone in the world does. I still think it's more likely for a piper to come out defending that fingering than someone from the flute axis. Cheers,

Rob

Please note my careful use of conditional language in the following!

I don't even know what Cnat fingerings are available on Uillean Pipes, so am missing the drift here, but I don't see Rob's point about fluters either. Most of my flutes cross finger Cnat best with oxo xxx, which is also what is given by the majority of fingering schemas I have seen from the period when these flutes were "current design". Relatively few such give oxx ooo, presumably because on most flutes it is flat and veiled whereas oxo xxx is stronger and more closely in tune/better matched with the keyed Cnat (where that is available). There are some flutes which are best with oxx ooo, and that fingering does offer some advantages in certain patterns of fingering, I certainly concede, but oxo xxx IMO is generally much more convenient in most contexts - passing by scale or step and in ornamentation (judged not just by personal familiarity/comfort but by looking at what finger changes are required to perform a variety of note sequences - how many fingers moved and with what facility/difficulty or how much simultaneous opposed motion). I use it or the keyed Cnat according to context.

Why the Irish tradition predominantly adopted oxx ooo when oxo xxx was, so far as we can tell, and so far as there was such a thing, the C19th "standard" cross fingering for Cnat on English flutes is a mystery to me. It isn't "easier" and it is usually poorer.

It would be interesting if some of you folks would set aside prejudices and preferences for a moment and go check out your flutes and whistles objectively against a tuner with the available alternative fingerings and report back which makes the best sound - nearest in tune at similar breath pressure to adjacent notes plus strongest, least "wolfy" or veiled tone.

As I and others keep saying, short of buying an instrument specifically because it offers the fingering you prefer optimised by the maker, surely the bottom line is that we should establish for each instrument we use which way it works best and then work at optimising our playing of it on that basis?

[Cayden]

Why the Irish tradition predominantly adopted oxx ooo

But did it? Really?

Most whistle and flute players I know hold some fingers of the lower hand down and generally fiddle with different fingers, shading and vibrato to influence their intonation on various notes.

Saying that oxx ooo was predominantly adopted if simplifying things more than a bit.