Session Question

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:00 am

boatgirl wrote: Would one of those artful things be to put tunes together that may all play c nats and then the next set all have c#. Switching Cs one tune to the next messes me up a bit.

This wouldn't ever enter our heads, I don't think, as the C's are always switching back and forth within the same tune, so the tunes themselves couldn't be categorised one way or the other.

boatgirl · Post by **boatgirl** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:48 am

I haven't had that much trouble with the cs - I am afraid that makes me sound brand new to whistle when I'm not. It is just that from one tune to the next (jigs) occassionally I'll key first c wrong. I was just tring to figure out what jem meant by artfully putting tunes together. I think I have an idea with everyones responses though. great stuff, much appreciated. I am also extremely shy when it comes to performing - actually I get all nervous and cease to make any nice music if anyone other than immediate family hear me. So this is my effort to overcome that. I would like to play a priv session of 1 on the dock one day and brave the dockwalkers to build up my confidence.

I'm so lame. Now you all know my shame.

Rob Sharer · Post by **Rob Sharer** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:14 am

In my experience the 2- or three-times-through convention is an American one. In Ireland, tunes frequently get played several times in a row, with no quizzical eyebrows like what you might get over here. The difference seems to be that if you're just playing a rote repetition of the tune, two or three times is plenty. If the musical conversation is deep, you won't want to hang up so soon. I know there are deeper sessions in the U.S. as well, but I'm sure it doesn't take too much imagination to conceive that, in Ireland, it's more the rule than the exception, though by no means a given. Cheers,

Rob

Key_of_D · Post by **Key_of_D** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:26 am

An artful example might be Cooley's into The Otter's Holt, I just love the keychange you get from that, puts a nice lift on things, plus Cooley's flows real nicely into The Otter's Holt, so another thing to notice.

Remembering the C's just comes with practice if you're having a hard time remembering them.

As for being nervous, I totally understand, but that's one reason I decided to go to sessions anyways, was to help get over that nonsense. I still haven't fully cured it, and I'm envious of those who don't even have the words "stage fright" in their vocabulary, but I'm getting better. What usually helps is a shot or two of Jameson.

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:33 am

I go to some old time fiddlers conventions and sometimes run across some ITM's and we play a lot of crossover tunes (played Irish style, hornpipes pointed, etc) old timey style, IE a bunch of times through and one tune at a time.

When we do an ITM set, some of the old time players say they can't "get their head around" the tunes with them just played 3 times through (twice for the big tunes, 4 times through for single reels).

Most of the sessions I have been to play the two part double jigs, hornpipes, polkas and reels three times through and the big tunes twice through and single reels 4 times.

After the old time players hear and (re)learn the hornpipes played bouncy and with lots of triplets, they love them! Most old time players play hornpipes at reel speed, perhaps a good bit faster than ITM reels.

For building sets, try to switch modes between tunes. An especially good one set IMHO is a major mode such as D or D mixolodian, followed by E mode tune (play it slightly faster with the change) then followed by an A (or D Dorian, sounds A minorish) tune. It sounds happy, then moody then furious (A releations tunes seem to be the fastest.

Just make sure you change either modes or tune speeds for good sets.

anniemcu · Post by **anniemcu** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:32 pm

Rob Sharer wrote:In my experience the 2- or three-times-through convention is an American one. In Ireland, tunes frequently get played several times in a row, with no quizzical eyebrows like what you might get over here. The difference seems to be that if you're just playing a rote repetition of the tune, two or three times is plenty. If the musical conversation is deep, you won't want to hang up so soon. I know there are deeper sessions in the U.S. as well, but I'm sure it doesn't take too much imagination to conceive that, in Ireland, it's more the rule than the exception, though by no means a given. Cheers,

Rob

That is a good point! I hope some day to be able to actively contribute rather than just play along.

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:06 pm

boatgirl wrote:... build up my confidence.

Do it. Do it now. You said it - confidence. That's the name of the game. I would stop when the mail person would drive up in their truck to the mailbox. Then one time I was playing when I thought nobody was paying attention and a guy walked down the street and I stopped. He said "Don't stop on my account. I was enjoying it."

Since then I have learned that people enjoy you putting something out there, warts and all. They respect that, and enjoy it so long as it's not horrible. They remember the good bits and don't even realize you've goofed up most of the time. The trick is not to stop when we mess up. I used to stop and go again when I was practicing but I found that made a habbit that was no good when playing in a session. Just keep the tune running in your head as if there are others there and practice picking it up again when you can.

Works for me, YMMV. But you won't get over playing in public without playing in public. So play in public!!

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:49 pm

boatgirl wrote:I haven't had that much trouble with the cs - I am afraid that makes me sound brand new to whistle when I'm not. It is just that from one tune to the next (jigs) occassionally I'll key first c wrong.

I sometimes will just skip any notes near that part of the scale because I can't remember which C to use. I totally relate.

But have you ever noticed there are some tunes where the Cs could go either way: C or C#? It's almost like neither C sounds quite right and neither C sounds quite wrong.

boatgirl · Post by **boatgirl** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:09 pm

Thanks for all the help guys. I knew I could count on c&f. I had a beer yesterday (dutch courage and all) and I played outside and a bit today just on my boat! There were 5 people out and about the marina. At first I played slowly and repeated a tune until I relaxed. As I relaxed and began to focus on the music I changed to a session like style, playing a tune 3 times through or just twice, depending on the tune. I managed to hold it together when I messed up a couple of times.

A fellow boater asked me later what that was I was playing and after I told him a tinwhistle/pennywhistle he said and I quote, "well that was just beautiful" and it reminded him he was Irish (descent)!

sbfluter, thanks for your post I am glad I am not the only that confuses the Cs!

Thanks for everyones help again, I now know what to aim for regarding session play and after reading some old posts about performance anxiety I have my work cut out. Lucky I love this "work".

pancelticpiper · Post by **pancelticpiper** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:29 am

sbfluter wrote: But have you ever noticed there are some tunes where the Cs could go either way: C or C#? It's almost like neither C sounds quite right and neither C sounds quite wrong.

Yes Cs are funny things in Irish music, perhaps especially on the pipes.
On the pipes there are certain note-sequences where pipers will usually play C#, others where they will usually play C naturals.
So, the pitch of C doesn't have much to do with a concept of what key a particular tune is in, but rather the shape of the melody.
The sequence back D, C, A is usually played with a staccato (or at least detached) C sharp.
When C is approached from below, especially from B, the C is usually natural.
Here's a bit of a jig that shows this:
dC#A A2Cnat/ dC#A GEB/ dC#A A2D/ F#AD GED/
So you see on these pipe tunes any attempt to decide which "key" the tune is in is pointless- a guitarist I know would call it "D-ish".

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:47 am

The D mixolodian mode (listen to Banish Misfortune) switches between Cnat and C#.

Chord players can tell a mixolodian mode by the frequent changes to the base chord to one that is a whole step down.

A mix for example will have changes from A to G chords. You use the standard D fingering and the G note is played natural, even though it is D-ish.

There is quite a bit of information on the different modes common in Scottish/Irish trad. Just Google a little.

Pat Cannady · Post by **Pat Cannady** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:21 am

My experiences are in total agreement with Rob's. In Ireland or among off-the-AirBus Irish or first generation musicians, it seems pretty normal to play a tune a MINIMUM of three times. Shorter tunes like polkas or two-part single reels can get played 6 or 8 times at a go.

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:51 pm

I like Rob's description, too, especially the "conversation", and not just in Ireland. The 2x/3x convention is a good starting point, but not a rule.

Sometimes different instruments are dropping in and out, or people are actually switching instruments, and each rep becomes an exploration of a different texture. Sometimes people are acquiring the tune, and more reps give more learning time. Sometimes players are exploring variations. Sometimes several players will lock into a groove, or an accompanist and lead players, and each rep brings out a different personality of the tune.

It can be frustrating when some players want to switch tunes mechanically after 3 reps, while others are just hitting their stride. Good session communication, both verbal and nonverbal, is the key to sorting this out.

I wonder how much the conventions have been influenced by recordings, and the need to squeeze sets into nice 3-5 minute chunks. A reel or jig typically takes around 30 or 40 seconds per repetition. So you can do the math to figure out how reps would be limited in a set of 2 or 3 tunes. Outside the core ITM areas, players who source their tunes mainly from recordings might feel more artificially constrained by what they're simply used to hearing.

boatgirl · Post by **boatgirl** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:03 pm

So my solo sessions go a bit like this now:-

3 repeats of tune most sessions experimenting with home made sets.

Then other days I get into a stride after 3 repeats and want to do more of a tune. So I say to myself, "Self, lets do it the Irish way and forget this generic bog standard routine!" and we do.

Carey · Post by **Carey** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:24 pm

boatgirl wrote:Thanks for all the help guys. I knew I could count on c&f. I had a beer yesterday (dutch courage and all) and I played outside and a bit today just on my boat! There were 5 people out and about the marina. At first I played slowly and repeated a tune until I relaxed. As I relaxed and began to focus on the music I changed to a session like style, playing a tune 3 times through or just twice, depending on the tune. I managed to hold it together when I messed up a couple of times. A fellow boater asked me later what that was I was playing and after I told him a tinwhistle/pennywhistle he said and I quote, "well that was just beautiful" and it reminded him he was Irish (descent)!
...

Good on ya Boatgirl!!