Measuring how much you participate... a sticky wicket

[scheky]

When someone rebuked me for dumping on Generation whistles, I thought about it for a long time, and discovered that he was right. I was trashing whistles people loved, THEIR whistles! Since then I have learned to be more cautious; not out of fear, out of courtesy.

That's another running gag on the forums. I appreciate your attitude, not because I particularly love any type of whistle but because I think it's a particularly cheap attitude to rubbish something you may not quite understand or are able to manage (yet?). In recent days I have seen 'I am at a level above Generations' 'I don't understand why the pros bring a pocketknife to a gun fight' and probably a few more. I never quite get what that means.

Even when confronted with soundclips to show the type of whistle rubbished plays quite nicely, people don't believe it. They don't want to. They seem to like to think they can throw money at it and sound well instead of putting in the work. It is not so.

To be honest I am not particularly interested in what whistle anyone plays or not. If it works, it works. And if you don't play very well, no whistle is going to save you. It's the mindless rubbishing that goes on continuously that rubs me the wrong way.

Ah, riding the old hobby horses (or beating the dead ones, if you like), there's nothing quite like it.

How many of you can really distinguish between the sound of your average off the shelf cheap whistle and it's cousin twenty times the price? I wonder.

Watch the forum over the next couple of days.

Now THIS is what I've missed lately. I look forward to the test Peter. The flute forum had a pretty good one in the same vein about a year ago.

[Emrys]

Good lord--the difference between a fine whistle and a not-so-fine whistle is obvious to the trained ear. And if your ear isn't trained, then listening to beautiful tone and identifying its quality is the best way to train it. OK and sure... I tune pianos and plenty of my clients say they can't tell the difference. That appears to be true... and so what? Does that mean that those of us who can tell the difference should consider it somehow suspect, and instead sink to the lowest common denominator, just for kicks (or is it guilt or what?) (And please, don't get all hot about "lowest common denominator"--there's nothing wrong with low anymore than high is good; distinctions are a part of life.)

As someone who has spent a lifetime listening to fine instruments (it turns out that the cello my brother was playing as a kid was a 3/4 size Strad), and whose profession is making pianos sound as good as they possibly can, I am deeply appreciative that there are so many fine makers who have spent their lives learning how to refine the art of whistle making.

That said, I don't see why some of us enjoying expensive whistles (yup, 10 times more expensive, and worth every penny to my ears--plus we both know that these whistle makers are not exactly getting rich at these prices, and what other top quality instrument can you buy for $200???) ... why the presence of great whistles need to negate inexpensive ones. There's a place for both. I sure don't stash my O'Riordans in the glove compartment-and I sure love to play the whistle in the car!

Of course a great player will sound good on almost any instrument. But when it comes to listening to Joanie's album for the 100th time, getting a full-body blissout as her tone takes me to heaven, I am sure glad that Pat O'Riordan is her main man, I'll tell ya that.

What I really can't understand is why there needs to be even a hint of friction about this issue...

[Cayden]

Good lord--the difference between a fine whistle and a not-so-fine whistle is obvious to the trained ear.

Well, I was wondering about all those who are forever putting down some makes of whistles and deifying others. A good listener will be able to distinguish tonal qualities. I do not believe though the separation falls between cheap vs expensive but more between good-bad or if you like different aesthetics that come with different musical backgrounds.
Which leaves the question I asked , how many of you opinionated whistle owners are indeed good listeners?

Feel free to have a go here .

[Ceili_whistle_man]

peeplj wrote,

I betcha Joannie would sure be able to tell the difference in the whistles, whether the listener could or not...

Mmmm, I don't know peeplj, do you know for sure? Are you assuming because she is a great whistle player that she would know the difference in sound from whistle to whistle?
I am Irish, have been all over Ireland and heard all sorts of accents, would anyone assume that I can tell straight away which County or region anyone in Ireland comes from by their accent/dialect? I'm assuming that Joannie would, like me, guess, because the whistle/accent sounded similar to something I already know. I am just speaking off the top of my head here and am not having a go at you, but can we assume that she or anyone else for that matter would be any more knowledgable than you or me? I know experience can give an advantage in these things, but going by the attempts at picking which whistle is which from Peter's playing, it could just as likely be a trombone he is playing!!

[pancelticpiper]

Good lord--the difference between a fine whistle and a not-so-fine whistle is obvious to the trained ear.

I do not believe though the separation falls between cheap vs expensive but more between good-bad or if you like different aesthetics that come with different musical backgrounds.

Some great wisdom here.
I have in my time played just about every neo-whistle out there and still find myself going back to old trusty Generations that I've tweaked and are simply very fine whistles. I even made Generations in C sharp, B natural, and low A (photos on another thread).
Actually for years I wouldn't touch anything but Generations, in part due to some sort of reverse snobbery: at sessions here, somebody showing up with an expensive American-made neo-whistle made of exotic wood or sterling silver or whatever was the sure mark of the newbie who was clueless about how to play Irish music. Always always in their bag, in addition to the fancy whistle, was sure to lurk recorders and/or a Boehm flute. Their repertoire: a couple O Carolan tunes played with strong vibrato and every note tongued.
The "real" Irish players ( born and raised in Ireland) played Generations.
That has all changed now and it seems like all the "big names" in Irish music have gone over to the neo-whistles. I have some too, which I use at session simply because of volume. But I still prefer my old Generations for quiet situations or for recording.

[peeplj]

peeplj wrote,

I betcha Joannie would sure be able to tell the difference in the whistles, whether the listener could or not...

Mmmm, I don't know peeplj, do you know for sure? Are you assuming because she is a great whistle player that she would know the difference in sound from whistle to whistle?
I am Irish, have been all over Ireland and heard all sorts of accents, would anyone assume that I can tell straight away which County or region anyone in Ireland comes from by their accent/dialect? I'm assuming that Joannie would, like me, guess, because the whistle/accent sounded similar to something I already know. I am just speaking off the top of my head here and am not having a go at you, but can we assume that she or anyone else for that matter would be any more knowledgable than you or me? I know experience can give an advantage in these things, but going by the attempts at picking which whistle is which from Peter's playing, it could just as likely be a trombone he is playing!!

I take your point, but you didn't quite follow what I meant.

I was just saying I'm assuming Joannie plays Burkes and O'Riordans for a reason that seems good to her; she could obviously play any kind of whistle she wants.

So there is something about those whistles which appeals to her.

Now I have no doubt Joannie is going to sound fantastic on any whistle that can be made to even halfway play right, and if there was part of the whistle she was having to fight a bit to make it play to her tastes, we the listeners would likely never know.

But she would know, and that's the point I was trying to make.

There are, after all, two things that make up a truly great musical instrument: the way it sounds (when played well) to the listener, and the way it responds to the musician who is playing it.

Just my $.02, but I did want to clarify that I wasn't saying anything about whether or not Joannie can identify whistles by sound.

--James

P.S. I'm pretty sure she can, and I reckon Peter can well enough also.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

peeplj

I was just saying I'm assuming Joannie plays Burkes and O'Riordans for a reason that seems good to her; she could obviously play any kind of whistle she wants.

Yes, okay no argument there, but that is a seperate point
You say this and only this (apart from the quotations in your post)

I betcha Joannie would sure be able to tell the difference in the whistles, whether the listener could or not..

...then you say in your next post...

Just my $.02, but I did want to clarify that I wasn't saying anything about whether or not Joannie can identify whistles by sound.

Sorry, I may be a daft (daft in a positive way!) Irishman, but I am confused by what you are saying. I do understand that you are saying Joannie Madden plays whistles she likes because of the tonal qualities she finds in them. Don't we all? That is a totally different thing from having a whistle in hand and playing it and deciding whether you like it or not and having someone else play a whistle (unseen) and make a decision on what make that whistle is just by it's sound.
I doubt if anyone would have a high strike rate if they tried to pick which brand of whistle was being played out of a random sample of ten seperate whistles, even if the same tune was played on all ten.
I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling Peter has a little surprise in store in his revealing of what whistles he is playing in his clips.

[peeplj]

Sorry for the confusion.

What I'm saying is that while Joannie can make anything from a Generation to a Clarke to an O'Riordan sound lovely to the listener, I would suspect she enjoys playing the O'Riordans and Burkes because of the way they play in addition to the way they sound.

I'm talking about the feel of the instrument to the musician, here, not the sound to the listener.

--James

[eskin]

I'm quite sure that a superb musician like Peter could make a soda straw with holes cut in it sound angelic! I do agree with Peter that the music comes primarily from the player and the playing, not from the instrument.

I figure, unless I'm playing solo or recording, there is a lot more than just how a whistle sounds when recorded through a particular setup that goes into why I prefer one instrument over another:

Here's some of the factors I can quickly think of:

1) Tonal quality
2) Ease of play
3) Air requirements
4) Backpressure
5) Weight in the hand
6) Mouthpiece length
7) Mouthpiece bottom edge angle (why I don't like to play some wood whistles, even though I love the sound, they just feel funny to me)
8) Material (some people hate the taste of aluminum or brass fipples)
9) Tone hole size
10) Tone hole spacing
11) Tone hole edge finishing (the Copeland is particularly amazing in this regard)
12) Tunable or not
13) Air pressure differential between first and second octaves
14) Breathiness
15) Tuning stability vs. temperature (why I don't like thin walled aluminum high D whistles, don't care who makes them, I won't own one.)
16) Tonal stability in the first to second octave transition pressure zone
17) Seamed tube vs continuous (I don't like the feel of the seam on the Clarkes)
18) Ease of amplification (i.e. optimal mike placement)
19) Appropriateness for the venue
.
.
.

I like to play a old Copeland brass high D in sessions because of its tonal quality that can actually be heard in a group, but for recording I use Burke because of its ease of play, and consistently stable and effortless good intonation. I keep a O'Brien tweaked D in the car for practicing at stop lights and a Burke narrow bore high D composite in my case for quiet house sessions. Different whistles for different purposes, but in my case, I'm choosing primarily based on volume, ease of play, and consistency and ease of good intonation over temperature ranges.

I've played $300 whistles that were completely awful and $7 whistles that were wonderful. Price, in my experience, doesn't necessarily equate to a better sounding or more satisfying to play instrument. That being said, finding a whistle you enjoy playing is similar to finding a pair of shoes that you like and fit your feet, its not necessarily correlated with price.

[BrassBlower]

Let's see:

Ya, if I gave Joanie one of my Clarke Woodstocks and took one of her O'Riordans, you could probably listen to us playing and still tell who was who.

To which this response was given:

I betcha Joannie would sure be able to tell the difference in the whistles, whether the listener could or not...

--James

Which elicited this response:

Mmmm, I don't know peeplj, do you know for sure? Are you assuming because she is a great whistle player that she would know the difference in sound from whistle to whistle?
I am Irish, have been all over Ireland and heard all sorts of accents, would anyone assume that I can tell straight away which County or region anyone in Ireland comes from by their accent/dialect? I'm assuming that Joannie would, like me, guess, because the whistle/accent sounded similar to something I already know. I am just speaking off the top of my head here and am not having a go at you, but can we assume that she or anyone else for that matter would be any more knowledgable than you or me? I know experience can give an advantage in these things, but going by the attempts at picking which whistle is which from Peter's playing, it could just as likely be a trombone he is playing!!

Which brought on the following comeback:

I take your point, but you didn't quite follow what I meant.

I was just saying I'm assuming Joannie plays Burkes and O'Riordans for a reason that seems good to her; she could obviously play any kind of whistle she wants.

So there is something about those whistles which appeals to her.

Now I have no doubt Joannie is going to sound fantastic on any whistle that can be made to even halfway play right, and if there was part of the whistle she was having to fight a bit to make it play to her tastes, we the listeners would likely never know.

But she would know, and that's the point I was trying to make.

There are, after all, two things that make up a truly great musical instrument: the way it sounds (when played well) to the listener, and the way it responds to the musician who is playing it.

Just my $.02, but I did want to clarify that I wasn't saying anything about whether or not Joannie can identify whistles by sound.

--James

P.S. I'm pretty sure she can, and I reckon Peter can well enough also.

So then we're back to this:

Sorry, I may be a daft (daft in a positive way!) Irishman, but I am confused by what you are saying. I do understand that you are saying Joannie Madden plays whistles she likes because of the tonal qualities she finds in them. Don't we all? That is a totally different thing from having a whistle in hand and playing it and deciding whether you like it or not and having someone else play a whistle (unseen) and make a decision on what make that whistle is just by it's sound.
I doubt if anyone would have a high strike rate if they tried to pick which brand of whistle was being played out of a random sample of ten seperate whistles, even if the same tune was played on all ten.
I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling Peter has a little surprise in store in his revealing of what whistles he is playing in his clips.

And here we are once again:

Sorry for the confusion.

What I'm saying is that while Joannie can make anything from a Generation to a Clarke to an O'Riordan sound lovely to the listener, I would suspect she enjoys playing the O'Riordans and Burkes because of the way they play in addition to the way they sound.

I'm talking about the feel of the instrument to the musician, here, not the sound to the listener.

--James

Remember what I said at the very beginning? Well, here it is again:

Ya, if I gave Joanie one of my Clarke Woodstocks and took one of her O'Riordans, you could probably listen to us playing and still tell who was who.

Apparently, a journey of a thousand miles starts with one step, even if the destination is back at the starting point.

[Ceili_whistle_man]

BrassBlower and peeplj, here is where all my confusion started out...

How many of you can really distinguish between the sound of your average off the shelf cheap whistle and it's cousin twenty times the price? I wonder.

And if you don't play very well, no whistle is going to save you.

Ya, if I gave Joanie one of my Clarke Woodstocks and took one of her O'Riordans, you could probably listen to us playing and still tell who was who.

I betcha Joannie would sure be able to tell the difference in the whistles, whether the listener could or not...

--James

From past experience when quoting anyone, if you get into a quote-quote-quote scenario, the final response should refer back to the original quotation, which in this case was...

How many of you can really distinguish between the sound of your average off the shelf cheap whistle and it's cousin twenty times the price? I wonder.

So.... James, your response 'I betcha Joannie' etc, for me, refers to Peters original question, not BrassBlower's comments on what Peter has asked.
I'm going for a beer and a lie down, my head hurts!!!!

[pancelticpiper]

This "blind" whistle sound test (on the other thread actually but the topic has been raised here) reminds me of the test which was conducted with Boehm flutes of various materials.
Boehm flute players are often very opinionated about flute materials, some peferring silver, some gold, all disdaining plated student models. Some will go to the absurd extent of having the headjoint, body, and footjoint of three different metals (such as gold, silver, and platinum) to get just the tone they want.
Anyhow a pro flute teacher/player played Boehm flutes in various materials in turn for a roomful of fellow players, hidden by a partition. People were all over the map in their attempts to guess which flute was which. However, when they PLAYED the flutes themselves they could easily tell which was which and had strong preferences.
As I said I recorded myself playing the same tune on a number of low D whistles and the actual SOUND differences between them were not at all what I expected based on how they felt to play.
In other words, players think that various instruments sound more different than they actually do.

[MTGuru]

In other words, players think that various instruments sound more different than they actually do.

There's a member of my household who thinks that all whistles, in fact, sound exactly alike. Namely, awful! But I suppose that's not quite the same thing.

[bigpow5]

........................

deleted. pls ignore

[wvwhistler]

What I really can't understand is why there needs to be even a hint of friction about this issue...

I'm going out on limb here by even responding to this post after following along, becoming lost and find my way again. While I, as a novice, can detect a difference between plastic, wood and metal and own both wood and plastic whistles whistles ( I haven't settled on a metal model/make yet) I fail to understand what the point would even be to try to argue this theory into proof. I fully believe that our own mind and ears perceive things differently when performed by ourselves than when obeserving another perform the same thing. To me it makes no difference what brand, price, material, country of origin, etc a whistle is as long as the the sound coming from it is sufficient to turn my mind to it alone and block out everything else for that two minutes. I have experienced this sensation many times with music performed by various artists on whistles made of varying materials and costs. Could I ever perform as well? Doubtful, but, that is my dream but my ultimate goal is to have fun along the way. I'm not going to nitpik. Some tunes I play better on plastic and others on wood. Someone else may have a different opinion about what they hear me playing.
Anyone can paint with a brush, canvas and acrylics but rare is the person that can create a masterpeice with the exact same materials that will bring tears to your eyes because of the shear beauty of the final composition.
To each his own I say. A Ferrari will get you you to point B just as a Fiesta will. Not as quickly or flashy but still point B.