Slow airs

[Cayden]

<groan>

yes but the point of the whole discussion is of course that the words enable you to follow the structure of the melody and play it correctly. The air playing I referred to before left notes out of the melody, added others that had no place there and generally ignored the whole structure of the melody.

[Louigi Verona]

no need to groan, I just make a remark =)

[alurker]

Mo Gile Mear is more strict in it's meter than slow airs associated with the great Sean Nos songs.

That is certainly the case however, with Louigi's permission, it may serve to illustrate what some of us are getting at:

In the verse, the line "'S anois im' bhaintreach chaite thréith" is played: "S anois <breath> im' bhaaaaaaintreach (dotted crotchet followed by quaver) chaite thréith"

It is unlikely a singer would sing it like this. Breaths would naturally fall at the end of phrases and words with two syllables would normally be sung as two crotchets or two quavers rather than dotted. The next line provides another example in that an extra note (an F or the tonic) is added which turns the word "Mo" into a two-syllable ("Mo-uh") word.

I always liked "Mo Ghile Mear" when sung forcefully, with a bit of zeal (He's my Hero!........ He's my Ceasar! etc.) rather than as a wistful lovers lament. As a result when I hear the tune played as a "nice" air, it doesn't ring true with the meaning and spirit of the song that I have in my head. I am trying to be constructive Louigi so please do not take this as criticism of your playing. I wouldn't be brave enough to tackle this air and you probably do a better version than I ever could.

Incidentally, the last time I heard this song was about 5 years ago outside the Cork Opera House late one TG4 awards night. It was sung by Iarla O'Lionard, Fintan Vallely plus a few other accomplished singers. Each verse was taken up by a different singer and everyone sang the chorus together. It was sung in a spirited, proud, rousing style. Spine-tingling, memorable stuff.

[Cayden]

It was played at JC Talty's funeral recently.

I agree it needs a bit of conviction to work. You hear the same comment often regarding Taimse im 'choladh that can get slowed down and drawn out while the tune is really one of defiance saying 'we're not going to take this, you'll see what will happen'

[alurker]

conviction

That was the word I was looking for ....

[Tony McGinley]

Louigi wrote: "Hm. Well, on the other hand, a song is a song
and a melody is a melody. I mean - I understand that an
admirer of a tradition would prefer to listen to a tune performed
just as it is sung. However, in general, why can't you play a
melody not as if is a song, but just if it's just a melody? I think
that outside the traditional (folk) performance this is quite fine."

If I understand you correctly it is like saying a ring tone on a
mobile phone is a valid musical performance. I suppose it is
in one way but I wouldn't pay to listen to it, nor would I care
to listen to it more than once.

Have you ever listened to a MIDI version of a tune? It usually
sounds somewhat lacking in expression, even mechanical. Peter
mentioned that Mo Ghile Mear is more strict time than many slow
airs, which indeed it is, but those who whould play or sing it
wihout consideration to expressiveness, would be missing the
most important point, the feeling. Irish music is about feeling
more than anything else.

Is the feeling right? That is the question. If it feels OK to you
that is good. To my ear it just does not feel right, which I think
mainly has to do with the phrasing.

[PhilO]

Yes, the music should be fun, but if you're going to share it with others, it should also be well and properly done. I think many think of airs as easy to play because they are at a slow tempo and we can just ooze our emotion through them feeling all teary and the like and having "fun." However, there are just plain horribly incompetent, so-so, good, fine, and terrific to unforgettable ways of playing them. That is why Joannie Madden is not sitting around listening to me play South Wind, Roisin Dubh, or Down By the Sally Gardens (please let me know if she is actually listening to me play) but I am sitting around listening to her play trying to distinguish what makes her playing so much better and perhaps emulate aspects of it.

It's interesting that my teacher will not go over airs in class and I sort of intuit why they are not readily amenable to hands on per se teaching; but just because they should properly be developed alone with a personal style is not to say that anything goes (or at least goes well).

And while we're at it, I also believe that the word of an established player is worth more regarding one's prowess in playing than lesser or non players. I've gotten applause from people (likely those only vaguely familiar with the music) who've overheard my playing, while getting constructive criticism from better players on the same renderings; there are simply better ways to play things and those most familiar with those ways are best able to judge.

Gentlemen, man your flame throwers...

Philo

[riverman]

[
Anyone who knows the song will be able to tell instantly if you've ever heard it. There are several airs (Irish and otherwise) that I often can't bear to hear played instrumentally for that very reason...few instrumentalists are willing to find a recording of the song, let alone learn to sing it, and consequently, they murder it out of all recognition. Redwolf

Redwolf, are you saying I murder airs?? How INSULTING!! It's not murder, it's "negligent homicide!!"

But seriously, I have listened to recordings of some slow airs I play, such as Enach Duan and Song of the Books, and they were played and/or sung SO slowly I could barely tell what tunes they were. I understand what you all are saying about playing as they would be sung, but on the other side, remember that there IS no one singing with me when I play. Listeners can only hear my notes.


But for all of you who have greater knowledge than me, how far off ARE the CD recordings in the Mel Bay "Ireland's Best Slow Airs" book and the "Slow Airs of Ireland" book. Are they not far off, not bad, terrible, obscene?

Thanks!

[A-Musing]

Rough Analogy...given with respect to all parties.
My dear mother has sung hymns in church for 80 years. I have found other avenues of "Spiritual" consideration, and no longer go to church. I love many of the ancient hymns, however, and revel in their melodies on my whistle. And, because I don't necessarily adhere to the strict cadence required for group singing, me dear Mom doesn't "like" my hymn-playing.
Literally, it's not "like" she's known it, all these years. Kinda "wild," and "disrespectful." By NO MEANS my intention! Sigh...
I play'em all the time. But not for her. Just being respectful.
I take cues from many traditions...and play all of the "songs/tunes" to the best of my ablilty. (Not necessarily "nice.") And I pay them all respect by doing so. Though I know, from this discussion, and Mom, that by not studiously emulating "how it's done," I could turn up the noses of the truly orthodox. Sigh. I happen to love the truest of blue, in the ITM world. But I also love to play whatever music I play how it eventually occurs to me! wow =:-) =

[A-Musing]

Holding a strict line on traditional form isn't narrow-minded supression. It's a wonderful thing! I, for one, don't have any well-worn "card" to play. Guess I haven't been in the trenches of a protracted battle over these things...so don't really feel threatened or p*****d off by a discussion such as this?
Tradition/orthodoxy/conservation...................GOOD.
Innovation/progression/liberty.......................GOOD.

Hmmm. Constantly scolding other adults for, er, trashing the music...well...THAT might start to bleed into a type of suppression.

I love airs. I've heard'em sung and played by people who's skill and heart I'll probably never duplicate. Like I've said, I'll play them, and hymns, etc, out of earshot of those who aren't inclined to show tolerance or respect for my efforts. It's OK. (I play mainly for my own A-musement, after all...)

[talasiga]

Hm. Well, on the other hand, a song is a song and a melody is a melody. I mean - I understand that an admirer of a tradition would prefer to listen to a tune performed just as it is sung. However, in general, why can't you play a melody not as if is a song, but just if it's just a melody? I think that outside the traditional (folk) performance this is quite fine.

As long as the music has a vocal element it will be pleasing. Thats a generrality I know but it has stood thhe test of time and place for me.
One can even sing a song without words as in mouth music of different trads.

One can hear the air "She moved through the fair" and then put on a medieval lady saint's composotion in Latin which sounds remarrkably like the former. It may even be that the olden liturgical air informed the folk form some music historians may argue. I would suggest that, in the case of airs, it is not the specific languuage that iinforms them but the phenomenon of language itself. Keep the performance vocallic.

English (derived from German) and Gaelic are accent stressed languages whereas Latin (and her sister Sanskrit) are metrically stressed languages..
You will notice that there is very litlle accentual stress in an air. It is the nature of the air. It could just as well be sung in Latin for that matter.

Different singers will sing airs differently. However though I like Van Morrison, I don't liike the way he sings some airs. The reasons for this may be a bit of what Mr Laban said earlier. I like Alan Stivell.
I liked the people I heard on local radio when I was in Dingle. The program was in Gaelic so I don't know whoo they were. (It may surprise some of you but I don't speak Gaelic. I just did some linguistics at Uni once)

[alurker]

I know, from this discussion, and Mom, that by not studiously emulating "how it's done," I could turn up the noses of the truly orthodox. Sigh.

I think you are missing the point somewhat A-Musing. It's not about being a purist or orthodox. This is not a discussion about Mike McGoldrick's latest CD. I very much enjoy innovation in ITM by technically competent musicians. This is about playing an air with the wrong phrasing. When you play an air with phrasing that doesn't match the words it is grating to someone who knows the words.

I am very wary of the tendency to consign constructive criticism to the pigeon-hole of 'purisim'. It is all too easy to say "Hey, I just play what I play and if you don't like it, it's because I am being innovative and you can't handle it because you are a purist". In the majority of cases here, playing is criticised because of bad technique. Master your instrument, listen carefully to good ITM players and try to emulate them. When you have achieved a certain technical competency then it is fine to view criticism as a conflict in tastes. Until you have achieved that level it is safer to assume that criticism is related to your technique.

[A-Musing]

alurker...
I hear you. My thoughts are a bit "general" for this kind of discussion. The bottom line, for me, is an appreciation for both the "pure" and the "impure." And, speaking with my old Ma in mind...I surely do like the PURE alot better. Amen!
Think I'll go whistle and stop my half-baked discussing!
Thanks.

[BoneQuint]

Have you ever listened to a MIDI version of a tune? It usually sounds somewhat lacking in expression, even mechanical.

We have a new contender for the "understatement of the year" award!

[Louigi Verona]

Thanks for the response. I certainly see what you mean. If anyone of you has a recording of this song, please share it - it is very interesting to work on the phrasing and get it right!