C whistle vs Recorder: advise for tunes in C

[DreamOgreen]

I was hoping to get some advise from you cross fipplers out there... Besides Celtic music, I also have a fondness for medieval sounding tunes that you would typically hear played on a Recorder (Yes, say it and be proud) I have found that there is a fair amount of sheet music on the web in that genre but a lot of it is in the key of C. I have C whistles but can't play it from the music with D whistle fingering without a lot of bothersome half holing. I am tempted to try and re-train the brain to sight read with C fingerings but am afraid that I'll get all mixed up and ruin my ability to play with D whistle fingerings. I was wondering which possibilty of the following (or others) would be easiest. 1) Learn to play Recorder, different fingerings- less confusion with whistle 2)Learn to sight read music with C whistle fingerings. 3)Quit whinning and learn to half hole. 4) Try and devote my limited brain power (somewhere between ground squirrel and coconut) into figuring out how to transpose sheet music into other keys............. I appreciate any advise

[Screeeech!!!]

If the tunes are in C and would typically be played on a recorder, then get a recorder.

I used to really enjoy playing recorders when i was a child. They got left behind when i started playing brass in my teens. But they were lovely musical years with many nice friends.

[Adrian]

I think 1 and 4. You will quickly find Medieval and Renaissance music is written in more keys than just C. Learning both to play the recorder and how to transpose music will be the most help IMHO.

Try to get a recorder with more of a Renaissance sound than a Baroque one. A good low cost choice is the Mollenhauer Dreamflute. It sounds about six hundred million times better than a cheap plastic Baroque one.

Many Medieval and Renaissance tunes do sound great on a whistle, for which reason it is good to learn to transpose music.

[brewerpaul]

Yes, by all means learn Soprano recorder. That Mollenhauer is a very good choice as it's a semi-Renaissance design, with a cylindrical bore unlike a Baroque.
Although the Soprano is called a C recorder, it's fundamental scale is really a D scale, with the extra C and C# tacked on at the bottom. However, it is fully chromatic, so once you learn you'll be able to play tunes in all keys pretty easily. You may get funny looks if you try to take it to a really trad session, but apart from that the recorder is a wonderful instrument. BTW-- that Dreamflute is available in plastic for about $26 usd, and in wood it's only $114
http://www.magnamusic.com/dbrecpage.asp ... rrentCat=7

[chas]

With respect to 4, if any of the music you download is in abc format, you can transpose it in a program like Barfly. If it's not in abc, it's really easy to key music in. I've been doing that to transpose some music written for alto recorder into keys and ranges more friendly to the flute.

[MTGuru]

I second the soprano Mollenhauer Dreamflute! Also known as Adri's Traumflöte, from Dutch recorder designer Adriana Breukink. She created a hybrid instrument with a wide cylindrical Renaissance bore but modern (English/Baroque) fingering.

The company pages (in German with nice photos):
http://www.mollenhauer.com/Shop/de/dept_80.html

IMHO, the Dreamflute is one of the best instrument bargains in the universe. The plastic soprano is made of heavy plastic that feels and looks like wood in the hands. The fit and finish is excellent, with a modern O-ring joint like a Burke whistle. The black and gold model is very attractive. The intonation is good through a full 2 octave range. The sound is big and open, very different from a typical Baroque recorder, somewhat like a very wide bore whistle. For $26 you get an instrument comparable to a $500 reproduction Renaissance recorder. With double holes (D and C), or a single hole model for a more early music feel. The plastic requires no troublesome break-in or special care.

Because it doesn't look or sound like a Baroque recorder that some session players seem to hate, I can pull it out at trad sessions with no one batting an eyelash. It's the ITM stealth recorder! Oops, I just blew my cover ...

[The Weekenders]

Don't be afraid of screwing up yourself by reading in transposition. Your mind is big enough and you'll only benefit. Just think positive, not in fear and remember than musicians like pianists transpose on the fly with multiple notes, all the time. You CAN do it and you'll come out stronger, even though it's hard at first.
.
Think of the general scale, more than the specific key it's in. If you know about solfege, think that way. If not, just think of numerical scale degrees (I, II, III and so on) MORE than note names...

And really, the more its in your ear and less in your eye, the quicker you'll learn the tune and be free of those dots. Fortunately, most early music is just not that hard to play, compared to the Trad (don't tell the Early Music Authorities I said that)....

[Boo]

Yeah, what Paul said. I had a wooden Dream. It looked cool and sounded good. It wasn't right for the groups I played in (too loud), but I'd recommended it for playing solo or in louder sessions. It was the first recorder I bought precisely because I got tired of half-holing and trying to play incidentals on my whistles--I'm just not good enough to do it consistently and well.

Yes, by all means learn Soprano recorder. That Mollenhauer is a very good choice as it's a semi-Renaissance design, with a cylindrical bore unlike a Baroque.
Although the Soprano is called a C recorder, it's fundamental scale is really a D scale, with the extra C and C# tacked on at the bottom. However, it is fully chromatic, so once you learn you'll be able to play tunes in all keys pretty easily. You may get funny looks if you try to take it to a really trad session, but apart from that the recorder is a wonderful instrument. BTW-- that Dreamflute is available in plastic for about $26 usd, and in wood it's only $114
http://www.magnamusic.com/dbrecpage.asp ... rrentCat=7

[MTGuru]

Re. transposition ... Most good sight readers I know also do what can be called "reading the intervals". That is, instead of just reading the absolute pitches on the page, you also read the relative intervals between successive notes and follow the melodic contour. So when you see a C followed by an E, your brain thinks "major 3rd up" and that's what you play.

This technique is invaluable for sight transposing. Say you decide to transpose a piece from the key of C to D, everything up a M2. So you see a C, and finger a D, that's your reference point. Next you see an E and your brain thinks "major 3rd up" again. But this time you're fingering a D, so the leap takes you up to an F#. And so on, note by note. Then, once you know the tune, your ear kicks in and tells you if your fingers are behaving correctly.

Of course, good ear training for interval recognition helps a lot for this.

[WhistlingArmadillo]

Transposition isn't too bad a problem if you play D whistle and C recorder. I approached it from the opposite direction (years playing recorder, then decided to learn to read music for the D whistle). The epiphany came when I noticed that covering 6 holes gives you a "D" note for either instrument (3 holes gives you a G, etc.). For the first octave, the similarities outweigh the differences. Although the second octave starts to diverge more, it still didn't take long at all to be able to pick out the whistle tunes from sheet music pretty quickly. Hopefully you'll find this to be true going the other direction.

[Adrian]

Regarding the Dreamflute, there is also a hybrid version which has a plastic head and wooden body. This is another low cost choice. I have both and to me the tone is almost identical. A delightful instrument.

[Gears]

I also like recorders and have considered getting one of Ari's dreams.

Can anyone make a comparison of the Mollenhauer compared to a Susato
C ren. recorder?

[MTGuru]

Can anyone make a comparison of the Mollenhauer compared to a Susato C ren. recorder?

I have the Susato Renaissance soprano, and it's interesting in its own way but very different. The intonation is a bit iffy, the air volume requirement fairly high (low back pressure), and the tone pretty breathy. Overall, it feels and sounds to me more like a wide bore whistle than a Renaissance recorder. (Ironic, given those people who think Susato whistles sound like recorders!).

The ABS plastic is the same as the Susato whistles, slick and shiny, where the Dreamflute is textured and feels less artificial. The Susato mouthpiece and fipple design is also like the whistles, where the Dreamflute has a recorder-type fipple and a unique cutaway beak that's comfortable to play. The Susato finger holes have sharp cut edges, where the Dreamflute hole edges are smoothed and rounded and feel nice under the fingers (though less distinct). The Dreamflute A and G holes are unusually large, the E-to-D hole distance unusually small, and the overall scale length (fipple to C hole) is shorter than the Susato by around 15 mm.

Also, the Susato is pitched at dead-on A440 with the head joint all the way in, so it's hard to use in sessions that often tend to tune high. Where the Dreamflute is ~20 cents sharp all the way in, so it works in sessions, and can be pulled out to A440 for ensemble work.

I'm a fan of Susato whistles. But for a recorder I'd recommend the Dreamflute over the Susato (just personal opinion, of course).

[Tekcirc]

Hi all,
As has been said earlier transposition is not that hard.
In addition to tin whistle I also play the French Horn
and we transpose all the time. It took me about a week to learn how.

Nathan

[Gears]

Thank you, MTGuru.

I think that the Dreamflute wins hands down on looks, but I had read somewhere that there was some intonation problem with them. It sounds,
from what you said, that the Susato is worse as far as intonation goes.

Jerry