Cittern - OT

Blackbird · Post by **Blackbird** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:10 am

I have been looking around for information on this instrument and thought maybe you good folks could help me find out more about it. So far, I have figured out that it is related to the mandolin and bouzouki family and that it usually has five courses of paired strings. Info on good recordings and historical notes would be appreciated. Also, if I left one lying around the house, would its smaller size make it more appealing to my children than the guitar.

[ This Message was edited by: Blackbird on 2002-09-30 02:11 ]

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:18 am

Blackbird,
I was researching this topic a few months ago with a view to having a local luthier make me a 6-course cittern which I could tune in DADGAD. We had a lot of preliminary discussion on the design, discussing problems and possible solutions. In the end I decided to shelve the idea for the time being and order an electric bouzouki, a bit like the one Donal Lunny used to play in Moving Hearts.

I seem to have lost most of my links to Cittern pages but there is quite a bit of information out there if you look. What you say is pretty much right. Sobell, it turns out, make a cittern exactly like the one I was imagining. (The idea I had is really obvious when you think about it.) They also make others; check out their web site. I think Fylde also make citterns but I'm not sure. For the mandolin family as a whole and links to other sites try
http://home.hccnet.nl/h.speek/bouzouki
This is Hans Speek's homepage. He has a newsletter on citterns that you can subscribe to from there.

As for whether or not they would be more appealing to reluctant young musicians than guitars, I doubt it. But fretted instruments strung in courses do have a magic all their own so who knows. But a good one will cost a bit so I wouldn't make the investment unless I knew at least someone about the house will play it.

Hope that helps.

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:32 am

There aren't really a lot of recordings of solo cittern. However, search for Gerald Trimble (First Flight), Roger Landes (Dragon Reels), and Joseph Sobol (Citternalia). These are all good but Sobol's is my favorite. I recently traded a 5-course cittern for a bouzouki-a good trade in my view. I do mostly accompaniment. I also owned a 6-course citter. Not a Sobel but a fairly decent instrument. It was way to thick sounding for me. As wombat suggested, check out Han's page. Also Anthony de Waal's page.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cittern/index.htm
Thony has a page called Marketplace. There might be something there you would like. Also, since you're in Canada, Han has a makers page with a separate section for Canada.

Steve

PS for interesting accompaniment on a cittern-like instrument check out Aly Bain and Ale Moller's album Fully Rigged. Moller's instrument is not actually a cittern, but a bass-drone mandola. A great sound.

[ This Message was edited by: SteveK on 2002-09-30 04:35 ]

Seanduine · Post by **Seanduine** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:46 am

A chairde,
Ciarán Curran plays cittern throughout on Mairéad and Frankie's brilliant Ceol Aduaidh album of 1983.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:02 am

I am a member of the Cittern List at Yahoo Groups. That's a good place to go for information.

The modern cittern is basically a large flat or arched backed (usually a-style, but sometimes F or other) mandolin with 5 or more courses of strings (some call a 4 course one a cittern, it varies). In other words, a typical one is something like a 5-string mandocello. The Irish, or Scottish bouzouki is basically the same thing, but usually 4 courses of strings, and a longer neck. I have a Hora 4-course bouzouki.

The cittern is really popular in various European countries among folk musicians. They are a beautiful sounding and looking instrument.

Check out this page: http://www.acousticguitar.com/issues/ag89/bouzouki.html

I believe David Freshwater is a good maker, and not bad priced. He's a Scotsman. http://www.frettedfolkinstruments.com

The older form of cittern is represented today by the Lutherzither from Germany and the Portuguese guitarra, as well as certain other Iberian instruments.

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:36 am

In addition to the cittern list which Walden mentioned there's a fairly new traditional music site started by Aaron Jones (and the rest of his family). There's a discussion board with one section on CBOM. That stands for Cittern, Bouzouki and Octave Mandolin. There hasn't been a lot of discussion on the board yet but if some more people sign up and start talking about citterns and stuff maybe it will get going.

http://www.tradmusic.com/home.asp

Steve

Paul Anderson · Post by **Paul Anderson** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:59 am

Blackbird,
There's a luthier in your backyard named Lawrence Nyberg who's known for his bouzouki-family designs. I believe he hangs his hat in a place called Whidbey Island, B.C. A few years ago I was looking for a replacement for my Flatiron octave mandolin and Lawrence sent me his brochure. In subsequent phone conversations he was very helpful and his brochure had some stunning work in it. He's also on the Web.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:32 am

Blackbird,
It might be worth mentioning that there seems to be something of an 'anything goes' attitude to the naming of instruments in the cittern, mandolin family these days. I mean that what one person calls an octave mandolin another might call a bouzouki or even a cittern. There seem to me to be two overlapping trends going at the moment. On the one hand, some people are reviving instruments very much like early citterns. On the other hand, people are experimenting with new hybrid instruments, often in order to satisfy a customer with a distinctive sound in mind. The Irish bouzouki is the most successful hybrid instrument so far but there are others—Andy Irvine's bizarre (I think that's what it is called?) comes to mind; a bouzouki with a guitar-shaped sound box. The Australian luthier Graham McDonald works on instruments like this and also, I think, a Scotsman living in New Zealand called (from memory) Davey Stuart. Sobell of course, if you can afford them. There's no hard and fast line between hybrids and recreations in my view and the lack of agreed terminology can be very confusing. What you need to know when ordering is not so much what the instrument is 'called' by the person who makes it but things like scale, number of courses, is it to be tuned in fifths or fourths, do you want some courses strung in octaves or all unison. If all this seems a bit daunting, it isn't as bad as it sounds. If you know what sound you are after, good luthiers and those with a bit of playing experience will be only too happy to advise. A lot like the whistle community actually.

[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-09-30 12:54 ]

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:40 am

Phil Crump's website has a few explanatory comments under "instruments". He makes great instruments too.

http://www.pwcrumpco.com/

Steve

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:57 am

On 2002-09-30 07:02, Walden wrote:

The older form of cittern is represented today by the Lutherzither from Germany and the Portuguese guitarra, as well as certain other Iberian instruments.

I've always wondered how the guitarra evolved. One interesting feature it has is a curved fretboard -- like a viol. It also has funny tuning -- something like DABEAB.

Mark Cudek of the Baltimore Consort plays a very small cittern. The strings are AFAICT about the same length as most, but the body is tiny -- maybe 8-10" across and not much more than an inch deep. I would think this was pretty representative of what citterns were like a couple hundred years ago.

Pat MacSwyney is quite a good cittern player, although he doesn't use it much as a melody instrument on his albums (he plays a lot of whistle, though). His father, Tom, makes them.

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 11:16 am

On 2002-09-30 12:57, chas wrote:
Mark Cudek of the Baltimore Consort plays a very small cittern. The strings are AFAICT about the same length as most, but the body is tiny -- maybe 8-10" across and not much more than an inch deep. I would think this was pretty representative of what citterns were like a couple hundred years ago.

I think Stefan Sobell came up with the name cittern for the modern instrument. But the cittern I had looked very much like some Portugese instruments that I've seen on the web. For information on early citterns see
http://www.earlycittern.com/

I was at a cittern/bouzouki/etc get-together a couple of years ago and someone had a little renaissance type cittern made from a kit. It sounded very nice and was surprisingly loud.

Steve

Blackbird · Post by **Blackbird** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 11:10 pm

Thanks to everyone who replied. I'll be busy checking out all those websites and names tomorrow. Of course, the instrument is really for me and the reluctant young musicians are mere justification. But I did think a smaller instrument might entice their young hands, at least if I can prevent myself from calling out "be careful with the instruments" every time a string twangs.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:45 am

On 2002-09-30 12:57, chas wrote:

I've always wondered how the guitarra evolved. One interesting feature it has is a curved fretboard -- like a viol. It also has funny tuning -- something like DABEAB.

I've heard they evolved from the English guittar, but don't know for certain.

I have a Filipino banduria, which is like a Spanish one, but with a regular floating bridge, and in this case 14 strings in 6 courses rather than 12 strings in 6 courses. I played it at a wedding before. There's digital pictures somewhere . . . I also played it at the family reunion. I keep it at the church. My first cittern-family instrument was a 12 string Filipino banduria.

The laud (literally lute) is to the banduria (spelled bandurria some places) as the octave mandolin is to the mandolin.

Listen to some Spanish or Filipino or even some Latin American string band music, some time. They are doing good things with these cittern cousins.

cowtime · Post by **cowtime** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 7:53 pm

There aren't really a lot of recordings of solo cittern. However, search for Gerald Trimble (First Flight), Roger Landes (Dragon Reels), and Joseph Sobol (Citternalia). These are all good but Sobol's is my favorite.quote

Steve K. -
I got to see Sobol perform last St. Pat's day at a local church where our pipe band played and was completely amazed. I have NEVER seen such "pickin'" in my life(and I've seen a few). I talked to him afterward and got his cd. I think the most amazing thing(aside from watching him play) is that when listening to the tunes you would swear that there are more folks playing since he can play different parts simultanously. A great CD. Plus, a bit of whistle turns up too.